# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/541 "2013-06-29T04:26:35Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Don’t listen to him **Marcmcroy**! You never agreed to be bound by these statutes! Also I know for a fact that **tomndebb** has a gold fringe. There are topical creams for that now, **tomn.** See your dermatologist. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/542 "2013-06-29T11:27:37Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > If yo want codes [here](http://sedm.org/Forms/13-SelfFamilyChurchGovnce/RightToDeclStatus.pdf) cites Why does this “cite” give me the impression that you’re into the Christian Identity movement? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/543 "2013-06-29T11:30:03Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Also I know for a fact that **tomndebb** has a gold fringe. So his roots are showing, big deal, give him a break. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/544 "2013-06-29T14:58:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you had _actually read_ the 5th Amendment you’d know that you have a right to _avoid self-incrimination_, not “silence”. > > Truly, the level of ignorance of your own subject matter is appalling. Wow, straw arguments here too, come on mate. Anyone who has watched a television show about law enforcement has a heard a police officer read the suspect his or her Miranda Rights. After placing the suspect under arrest, the officer will say something similar to, “\*\*You have the right to remain silent. \*\*Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.” [here](http://www.mirandarights.org/) ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/545 "2013-06-29T15:05:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So his roots are showing, big deal, give him a break. ah now we hear the creator of Tommdebb through the created of tommdebb, First deny there is a creator, Is tommdebb “saying what he is saying” or is Tommdebbs creator saying what tommdebb is saying. we are existing and communication and adhering to the rules of a society “the straight dope”. you have elected Tommdebb as your sherriff and or government The person of tommdepp is reprimanding my personn of MarcMcroy. Same principal, one moment you say I was fractal wrong you allowed fractal realities. But then deny being a part of one. Is fractal only what you"see" or can it be part of what you is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/546 "2013-06-29T15:09:46Z")
Sorry, I don’t indulge willful nonsense unless it’s funny, and this isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/547 "2013-06-29T15:09:58Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I recommend that the OP get a copy of [Black’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black%27s_Law_Dictionary) and see that there is no “secret” language, and it is quite well defined. Obscure sometimes, but it is defined.:rolleyes: Black’s law does have its root in Latin, I know Latin better that Black’s “persona” (Latin) or “prosopon” (πρόσωπον: Greek) originally referred to the masks worn by actors on stage. The various masks represented the various “personae” in the stage play.[1] [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/548 "2013-06-29T15:18:44Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > ah now we hear the creator of Tommdebb through the created of tommdebb, > First deny there is a creator, Is tommdebb “saying what he is saying” or is Tommdebbs creator saying what tommdebb is saying. > we are existing and communication and adhering to the rules of a society “the straight dope”. you have elected Tommdebb as your sherriff and or government > The person of tommdepp is reprimanding my personn of MarcMcroy. > > Same principal, one moment you say I was fractal wrong you allowed fractal realities. > But then deny being a part of one. Is fractal only what you"see" or can it be part of what you is. Not talking for \*\*tomndebb \*\*here, but if you are deifying what Jefferson said you have to question your ideas about god supporting your peculiar ideas. “ **Question with boldness even the existence of a god** ; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.” Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/549 "2013-06-29T15:38:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Not talking for \*\*tomndebb \*\*here, but if you are deifying what Jefferson said you have to question your ideas about god supporting your peculiar ideas. > > “ **Question with boldness even the existence of a god** ; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.” > > Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787. I have asked with boldness and answered in Grace. Once again the powerful words of Mr Jefferson. [here](http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/) I have mine . Do you have yours? You can borrow mine, ya know, I like to share. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/550 "2013-06-29T15:39:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sorry, I don’t indulge willful nonsense unless it’s funny, and this isn’t. “whoosh” ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/551 "2013-06-29T15:44:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, we do not all share your religion. Some of us are atheists. Some of us are polytheists. > > I not sure what, exactly, you are but you might be the only one of that sect/cult here, which would make you highly unusual on this forum. > :dubious: There are some of us here quite comfortable with exploring the occult… I agree, but to be in the place and hold the title of the “conjured”, to do the will of the summoner is not a position to want to be in. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/552 "2013-06-29T15:52:09Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I have asked with boldness and answered in Grace. Once again the powerful words of Mr Jefferson. > > [here](http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/) > I have mine . Do you have yours? You can borrow mine, ya know, I like to share. You should know that secularists do love to point at Jefferson’s bible because he removed the divinity stuff and left the view that Jesus was a great teacher, not divine. [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/How-Thomas-Jefferson-Created-His-Own-Bible.html](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/How-Thomas-Jefferson-Created-His-Own-Bible.html) > [@](#): > > Thomas Jefferson, together with several of his fellow founding fathers, was influenced by the principles of deism, a construct that envisioned a supreme being as a sort of watchmaker who had created the world but no longer intervened directly in daily life. A product of the Age of Enlightenment, Jefferson was keenly interested in science and the perplexing theological questions it raised. Although the author of the Declaration of Independence was one of the great champions of religious freedom, his belief system was sufficiently out of the mainstream that opponents in the 1800 presidential election labeled him a “howling Atheist.” > > In fact, Jefferson was devoted to the teachings of Jesus Christ. But he didn’t always agree with how they were interpreted by biblical sources, including the writers of the four Gospels, whom he considered to be untrustworthy correspondents. So Jefferson created his own gospel by taking a sharp instrument, perhaps a penknife, to existing copies of the New Testament and pasting up his own account of Christ’s philosophy, distinguishing it from what he called “the corruption of schismatizing followers.” > [@](#): > > **Much of the material Jefferson elected to not include related miraculous events, such as the feeding of the multitudes with only two fish and five loaves of barley bread; he eschewed anything that he perceived as “contrary to reason.” His idiosyncratic gospel concludes with Christ’s entombment but omits his resurrection.** He kept Jesus’ own teachings, such as the Beatitude, “Blessed are the peace-makers: for they shall be called the children of God.” The Jefferson Bible, as it’s known, is “scripture by subtraction,” writes Stephen Prothero, a professor of religion at Boston University. It is clear however that you want to be the preacher here, that is not good also: **“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”** Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. Sure his words are powerful. And you need to fight your own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/553 "2013-06-29T15:54:41Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > And you checked before you fished it, I suppose? Or maybe you just assumed nobody labeled it? Just as, I suppose, you made sure you weren’t trespassing on anybody’s land? Or did you just assume that you had a right to wander as you will on “the Creator’s land”? > > This is simply post-hoc justification for selfish behavior. You never checked, and you didn’t care to, either. Right to travel \_yessir \_I assumed my in\_a lien\_able. so should you given the opportunity I was not trespassing unless I was warned of the nature of my trespass, No notice No trespass Why are you people are so afraid of your natural rights? ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/554 "2013-06-29T15:58:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You should know that secularists do love to point at Jefferson’s bible because he removed the divinity stuff and left the view that Jesus was a great teacher, not divine. > > [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/How-Thomas-Jefferson-Created-His-Own-Bible.html](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/How-Thomas-Jefferson-Created-His-Own-Bible.html) > > It is clear however that you want to be the preacher here, that is not good also: > > **“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”** > > Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. > > Sure his words are powerful. And you need to fight your own ignorance. [here](http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm) In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity. Although **Jefferson believed in a Creator,** his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term “Nature’s God” used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/555 "2013-06-29T16:18:13Z")
Uh-oh, it’s big red font time. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/556 "2013-06-29T16:20:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Uh-oh, it’s big red font time. sorry … too loud?.. against T&C contract? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/557 "2013-06-29T16:25:57Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Why are you people are so afraid of your natural rights? As we have repeatedly pointed out: what natural rights? You claim they exist. Where’s your evidence they do and what makes them inalienable? In fact, you have yourself shown examples where you have personally alienated the rights of other people. And there’s no shortage of cases throughout history where people have been deprived of life, liberty, and pretty much any other ‘natural’ right you have claimed. This includes the Americans in the Revolution. Their rights _were_ alienated, which is why they revolted. It’s nice rhetoric to claim otherwise but even Jefferson understood the reality. Feel free to go off on another digression, but you have never satisfactorily answered this fundamental question. Based on your other posts in this thread, it’s clear you won’t. But I might as well remind any looky-loos of this fact. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > sorry … too loud?.. against T&C contract? Not against the rules at all. But the folks who use big red letters tend not to be the ones who are entirely sane. Or rational. Or making a good point in any way. It’s not really a good sign for you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/558 "2013-06-29T16:27:21Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > [here](http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm) > In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity. > > Although **Jefferson believed in a Creator,** his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term “Nature’s God” used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Uh-oh, it’s big red font time. And, they are cute when they do not realize that they are helping the opponent’s position more than theirs. **For Jefferson and other Deistic founding fathers, their god was better than the god of the bible.** As science and reason would be respected by that god. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/559 "2013-06-29T16:37:54Z")
So where does that leave those of us who don’t believe in Jesus? To me, the OP’s religious theory is just as weird and baseless as his legal theory, and both carry no legal weight whatsoever. And that’s a very good thing. Your Constitutional rights aren’t based on your acceptance of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/560 "2013-06-29T16:43:33Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > sorry … too loud?.. against T&C contract? Oh, and to reinforce this, search for “Time Cube”. That page gives the best example for why text size changes, colored fonts, and weird formatting is not the best way to make your point and the fastest way to convince people you are not entirely of sound mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=29)