# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/41 "2013-06-24T22:27:38Z")
Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! It’s Christmas!! Don’t you guys run him off! I want to hear all about this. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/42 "2013-06-24T22:27:59Z")
To find a definition of a “human being”, you have to go back to 1948. it meant a monster to the court they are cumulative ya know ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/43 "2013-06-24T22:28:54Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Wait, what? Whose baby has die at the hand’s of a government employee? What are you talking about here? He’s talking about the mandate in Obamacare that makes government employees give abortions. DUH. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/44 "2013-06-24T22:29:45Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > To find a definition of a “human being”, you have to go > back to 1948. it meant a monster to the court > they are cumulative ya know No wonder Japan has problems if monsters are cumulative. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/45 "2013-06-24T22:33:05Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Law Dictionary: What is SOCIETY? definition of SOCIETY (Black’s Law Dictionary) [SOCIETY](http://thelawdictionary.org/society/#ixzz2XAqtlJE3) > > and I want out of the club No man is an island, Entire of itself, Every man is a piece of the continent, A part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. As well as if a promontory were. As well as if a manor of thy friend’s Or of thine own were: Any man’s death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind, And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. – John Donne ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/46 "2013-06-24T22:37:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No wonder Japan has problems if monsters are cumulative. 😃 lol i meant the law dictionaries good catch tho:smack: ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/47 "2013-06-24T22:39:23Z")
It is not easy to stand up against your constituents or your friends or colleagues or your community and take a tough stand for something you believe is right. Because you always want to keep working and live to fight another battle and it might cost you your career. Caroline Kennedy ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/48 "2013-06-24T22:40:31Z")
Here’s the thing. Yeah, it’s all a sham. The court has no right to tell you to do anything. You’re a free man and you don’t consent to be tried by this farcical court. So you stand up and demand your rights. What do you think will happen next? The judge, who a minute ago was an agent of the state enforcing a totalitarian rule over a nation of sheep, will fall back abashed, and order you to be set free to go about your peaceful business? No, what will happen is the judge will cite you for contempt of court and lock you up. See, the law is what guys with badges and guns and jails agree to call the law. If you are shipwrecked on an island inhabited by cannibals, and the cannibals seize you and take you in front of their chief, how much good do you think it will do for you to firmly but politely insist to the cannibal chief that he has no authority to judge you, that you are free man and not bound by the so-called laws of a tribe of cannibals? The cannibals will ignore you and do whatever they like with you. And if you go in front of a judge in the United States of America and insist that you aren’t a person or a corporation, you are a human being, and your name isn’t Marc McRoy or MARC MCROY but marc: mcroy, they have no right to try you, and you didn’t agree to be part of this country, what do you think will happen? Will the judge listen to you? No, he will try you according to what he thinks the law is. You’re right that the law is whatever human beings say the law is. But you don’t live on a continent with other people who agree with you on what the law should be. You live on a continent with people who have different ideas, and those people have guns and they aren’t afraid to use them when a free man gets uppity. You live on a continent of cannibals, and you might disagree with the cannibals about how they should live their lives, but you can’t wish them away just by saying the right words and thinking the right thoughts. Invoking your natural rights as a free human being is all well and good. But it won’t get you what you want, which is to be left alone by the cops and judges and government officials. They’re going to ignore your rights, and put you in a box with steel bars on the windows, and then what are you going to do? The steel box is going to be real, you won’t be able to wish it away by saying the right words in the right order. You first have to convince the vast majority of people on this continent to agree to the principles you believe in. Once they agree, then invoking your rights will work beautifully. Until then, it’s going to fail, and they’ll hurt you. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/49 "2013-06-24T22:47:08Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Here’s the thing. Yeah, it’s all a sham. The court has no right to tell you to do anything. You’re a free man and you don’t consent to be tried by this farcical court. So you stand up and demand your rights. > > What do you think will happen next? The judge, who a minute ago was an agent of the state enforcing a totalitarian rule over a nation of sheep, will fall back abashed, and order you to be set free to go about your peaceful business? > > No, what will happen is the judge will cite you for contempt of court and lock you up. See, the law is what guys with badges and guns and jails agree to call the law. If you are shipwrecked on an island inhabited by cannibals, and the cannibals seize you and take you in front of their chief, how much good do you think it will do for you to firmly but politely insist to the cannibal chief that he has no authority to judge you, that you are free man and not bound by the so-called laws of a tribe of cannibals? > > The cannibals will ignore you and do whatever they like with you. And if you go in front of a judge in the United States of America and insist that you aren’t a person or a corporation, you are a human being, and your name isn’t Marc McRoy or MARC MCROY but marc: mcroy, they have no right to try you, and you didn’t agree to be part of this country, what do you think will happen? Will the judge listen to you? No, he will try you according to what he thinks the law is. > > You’re right that the law is whatever human beings say the law is. But you don’t live on a continent with other people who agree with you on what the law should be. You live on a continent with people who have different ideas, and those people have guns and they aren’t afraid to use them when a free man gets uppity. You live on a continent of cannibals, and you might disagree with the cannibals about how they should live their lives, but you can’t wish them away just by saying the right words and thinking the right thoughts. > > Invoking your natural rights as a free human being is all well and good. But it won’t get you what you want, which is to be left alone by the cops and judges and government officials. They’re going to ignore your rights, and put you in a box with steel bars on the windows, and then what are you going to do? The steel box is going to be real, you won’t be able to wish it away by saying the right words in the right order. > > You first have to convince the vast majority of people on this continent to agree to the principles you believe in. Once they agree, then invoking your rights will work beautifully. Until then, it’s going to fail, and they’ll hurt you. So how long will the people will be cannibals doesn’t it have to start somewhere my kids are grown. Im at a crossroads I have gran children that I want the best possible life for right now, we all know we have allowed too much goverment into our lives our homes hell even our bedrooms and you all attack me like i’m the bad guy while the storm trooper’s boot is on your door next I just dont get it ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/50 "2013-06-24T22:47:52Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > He’s talking about the mandate in Obamacare that makes government employees give abortions. DUH. Don’t they have to make people get gay-married first? And THEN they get forced abortions. Freedom! Err, freemen! Or something… ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/51 "2013-06-24T22:49:03Z")
we are our own answer to our own problems . and you silly cheezers want to kill a messenger thats willing to take the heat of the first couple of blasts I dont get it… And yes i want you to be free also and YOUR KIDS ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/52 "2013-06-24T22:50:39Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I am really feeling drawn toward the free man on the land movement . . BTW, the more usual style (and style, spelling, capitalization, punctuation, etc., all are **supremely important** in this philosophy) is [freeman on the land,](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land) not “free man”. See also [sovereign citizen](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen). Bonus points if you can tell us the difference. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/53 "2013-06-24T22:52:46Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > and you silly cheezers want to kill a messenger thats willing to take the heat of the first couple of blasts I dont get it.. Dismiss != kill. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/54 "2013-06-24T22:56:39Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > So how long will the people will be cannibals doesn’t it have to start somewhere my kids are grown. Im at a crossroads I have gran children that I want the best possible life for right now, we all know we have allowed too much goverment into our lives our homes hell even our bedrooms and you all attack me like i’m the bad guy while the storm trooper’s boot is on your door next I just dont get it It’s your fault if you don’t get it. It’s not that complicated: **Nobody else here believes** that the storm trooper’s boot is about to kick down our doors. Some of us **do** think we have too much government, but generally they respond with, “So let’s have a little less of it, then, in fields X, Y and Z,” rather than, “So I want out of society!” ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/55 "2013-06-24T22:57:08Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > So how long will the people will be cannibals doesn’t it have to start somewhere my kids are grown. Im at a crossroads I have gran children that I want the best possible life for right now, we all know we have allowed too much goverment into our lives our homes hell even our bedrooms and you all attack me like i’m the bad guy while the storm trooper’s boot is on your door next I just dont get it Personally I think the government is pretty swell, and I wish we had more of it. I hope my kids live under a strong stable government that protects their rights, and their kids, and their kids. But I don’t think you’re a bad guy. And honestly, you aren’t being attacked-- you’re being mocked. And disagreed with. **Lemur866** gave you an awesome answer. Instead of reflexively tossing it aside, read it again. Think about it. Think about what he’s saying. Think about what will _really_ happen in a courtroom, if you try this. Maybe watch a couple youtube videos of people doing just that, and then being tazed into submission, handcuffed, and put in jail. Think about your grandkids; you want them to see you like that? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/56 "2013-06-24T22:57:55Z")
The first thing you have to realize is that the current legal regime that you hate was not created by a trick. It was created over the centuries by people with their eyes wide open. And there never used to be a magical time in 1776 when every man was free, and somehow we all became slaves. There were a lot of actual slave slaves in 1776. Married women could not own property. People didn’t have freedom of religion. And that’s here in the United States. Look what was going to happen in France in a couple of years. Laws exist because people agree to act as if the laws exist. You don’t have to obey the laws if you don’t want, but don’t act surprised when guys with badges and guns show up to make you obey the law. It won’t do any good to argue with them, you need to argue with the people who created the laws, which is the people of this country. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/57 "2013-06-24T22:58:39Z")
i wasn’t part of any movement, you put me there I just want to be free I saw the splc article but you know what? I dont dig them either. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/58 "2013-06-24T23:00:52Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > This is why we are special appearence before court there is no court of record when a free man is and questions of sovereign soul and jurisdiction of the human being are brought into question. You never know of our victories in claiming our being above the statutes that try to entrap us. It would be very harmful to the illusion if a court of record showed otherwise, wouldn’t you agree? You do realize a “free man on the land” is not obligated to be free of commas, periods, run on sentences, and random capitalization, yes? You come across as uneducated when you get sloppy like that. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > The new health care and abortion options are a good example I don’t want to be contracted with that kind of legislation and I want out. What say you? If you don’t approve of abortion then don’t get one. I agree with those that characterize you as a freeloader. You want the benefits of civilization but you don’t want to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/59 "2013-06-24T23:02:48Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > **i wasn’t part of any movement, you put me there** I just want to be free I saw the splc article but you know what? I dont dig them either. You have the jargon down perfect. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/60 "2013-06-24T23:10:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The first thing you have to realize is that the current legal regime that you hate was not created by a trick. It was created over the centuries by people with their eyes wide open. And there never used to be a magical time in 1776 when every man was free, and somehow we all became slaves. There were a lot of actual slave slaves in 1776. Married women could not own property. People didn’t have freedom of religion. And that’s here in the United States. Look what was going to happen in France in a couple of years. > > Laws exist because people agree to act as if the laws exist. You don’t have to obey the laws if you don’t want, but don’t act surprised when guys with badges and guns show up to make you obey the law. It won’t do any good to argue with them, you need to argue with the people who created the laws, which is the people of this country. Lemurs (i/ˈliːmər/ lee-mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Madagascar. The word “lemur” derives from the word lemures (ghosts or spirits) from Roman mythology and was first used to describe a slender loris due to its nocturnal habits and _ **slow pace** _, Soooo you think you own your property now , thought you had a deed in trust your car is owned by the state you are the registered user so you personally helped write the state statutes we now have under color of law. I didn’t make this up mate. To me it seems like there was a magic act performed and the free people lost their in-a LIEN- able rights I am not looking for sanctuary in the occult, the blind folks are finding their persons in the superstitions that the government has your best interests at heart. why do you keep saying law when it is statutes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=4)