# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/581 "2013-06-29T23:05:02Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Anyone who has watched a television show about law enforcement has a heard a police officer read the suspect his or her Miranda Rights. After placing the suspect under arrest, the officer will say something similar to, “\*\*You have the right to remain silent. \*\*Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.” > > [here](http://www.mirandarights.org/) Anyone who has ever read **THE ACTUAL BILL OF RIGHTS** will know the actual text of the Fifth Amendment is: > [@](#): > > No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb;\*\* nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,\*\* nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. The bit about silence and getting a lawyer provided if you can’t afford one are based on a US Supreme Court case _Miranda v. Arizona_ in 1996 and did not exist prior to that time. Watching TV does not constitute and education or research. But we already knew you were ignorant. I’m not expecting you to accept the facts, they are provided for those in the audience who might be interested in reality and actual history. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/582 "2013-06-29T23:06:54Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > ah now we hear the creator of Tommdebb through the created of tommdebb, > First deny there is a creator, Is tommdebb “saying what he is saying” or is Tommdebbs creator saying what tommdebb is saying. > we are existing and communication and adhering to the rules of a society “the straight dope”. you have elected Tommdebb as your sherriff and or government > The person of tommdepp is reprimanding my personn of MarcMcroy. > > Same principal, one moment you say I was fractal wrong you allowed fractal realities. > But then deny being a part of one. Is fractal only what you"see" or can it be part of what you is. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sorry, I don’t indulge willful nonsense unless it’s funny, and this isn’t. It’s sort of like _Jabberywocky_, but with less poetry and artistic merit. And less actual sense. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/583 "2013-06-29T23:10:18Z")
I actually agree. One of your posters was the first to submit such. I was trying the “like with like” approach. Thanks for your input ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/584 "2013-06-29T23:30:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The bit about silence and getting a lawyer provided if you can’t afford one are based on a US Supreme Court case _Miranda v. Arizona_ in 1996 and did not exist prior to that time. _Miranda_ was in '66, but I can’t imagine it’ll matter to marc either way. As a side note, I’m willing to entertain the possibility that his nonsense isn’t willful. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/585 "2013-06-29T23:38:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > _Miranda_ was in '66, but I can’t imagine it’ll matter to marc either way. Correct, that was a typo. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/586 "2013-06-29T23:42:11Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? Wow. This is whacked. Seriously, this is your actual theory? Holy crapsky. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/587 "2013-06-29T23:48:29Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? > [@silenus](#): > > People who think Youtube videos are arguments/evidence aren’t worth engaging, as they lack even the most fundamental debating skills. > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Wow. This is whacked. Seriously, this is your actual theory? Holy crapsky. And on top of that, when the child protection service people come to take a kid away from a lousy parent the agent is pictured with a SS Nazi arm band. I call Godwin, and since I found the cartoon source for his ideas, there is no need for more input from me here, see you guys and \*\*marcmcroy \*\*in the pit. > **[marcmcroy, you will not find what you're looking for here.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=695018)** > > marcmcroy, Congratulations on discovering the Straight Dope on the other end of whatever anti-government Alta Vista search you performed last week. I know a name like “Straight Dope” sounds like it must be a haven for Illuminati-spotters like... ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/588 "2013-06-30T01:34:43Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? I will say that video had higher production values than I was expecting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/589 "2013-06-30T02:11:05Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? As a lawyer, I can tell you that’s bullshit. Your birth certificate does not create a legal “strawman.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/590 "2013-06-30T02:38:16Z")
You’re a lawyer? In any event, folks, what we’re seeing here is a classic example of a person constructing arguments through definition, rather than thought. You see this all the time, really, but rarely constructed this high. It’s very common for people to create definitional arguments, little mini ontological proofs, by grabbing a definition from somewhere and running with it, “You can’t be racist against Arabs because Arabic isn’t a race, it’s a language,” stuff like that. The “Freeman” thing is just using HUNDREDS of these things to construct a worldview that quite literally defies an honest observation of how the world works. It’s much easier to live in a fantasy world where you’ve found the Magic Words that mean you don’t have to pay a vehicle registration free than it is to deal with the complex, chaotic world we really live in. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/591 "2013-06-30T02:53:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’re a lawyer? … There should be a sticky in ATMB. According to what I can remember with certainty the board has one MD and one lawyer, and I know that’s wrong. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/592 "2013-06-30T02:55:03Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? Yep. Cartoons are generally produced for their entertainment value, not for providing any information. And we are clearly past the utter nonsense on that cartoon. I note, for example, that the cartoon stupidly claims that “registration” comes from the Latin ablative _regis_, “of the king,” when the actual etymology derives from _re + gerere_, to pile up or to create a list. I also note, with amusement, that they tried to sneak in a little subliminal claim that the Masons are behind all this terrible oppression. Dumb, dumb, dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/593 "2013-06-30T03:13:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As a lawyer, I can tell you that’s bullshit. Your birth certificate does not create a legal “strawman.” I’m also a lawyer, and I call bullshit on that video too. **Marcmcroy** , if you want the straight dope on what you’re asking about, here it is: _[Meads v. Meads](http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.pdf)_, 2012 ABQB 571. Justice Rooke not only tears down all the FOTL/OPCA/SovCit arguments (including the “legal strawman” argument) brick by brick, but he then proceeds to stomp on the bricks until they are dust. Then he blows away the dust. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/594 "2013-06-30T03:25:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The “Freeman” thing is just using HUNDREDS of these things to construct a worldview that quite literally defies an honest observation of how the world works. It’s much easier to live in a fantasy world where you’ve found the Magic Words that mean you don’t have to pay a vehicle registration free than it is to deal with the complex, chaotic world we really live in. Well, it’s easier right up until the Real World grinds right over your fantasy world like a steamroller over a cardboard box. Then things can get kind of _unpleasant._ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/595 "2013-06-30T03:33:32Z")
If you don’t want to read the whole thing, here’s the only sentence that matters: “The story and process of a OPCA scheme (e.g. Freeman-on-the-Land and other such ideas) is not intended to impress or convince the Courts, but rather to impress the guru’s customer.” ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/596 "2013-06-30T03:36:53Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? I certainly hope we’re all past it because it’s a steaming pile of crap. That is weapons grade stupid right there. It invents false etymology out of thin air and piles lie on top of lie to build a fantasy version of reality that is beyond ridiculous. It’s absurd that anyone with a pulse could put faith in that snake-oil. _Do you understand actually means do you stand under_?! Less than 60 seconds in and the stupid will make your ears bleed ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/597 "2013-06-30T04:30:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If you don’t want to read the whole thing, here’s the only sentence that matters: > > “The story and process of a OPCA scheme (e.g. Freeman-on-the-Land and other such ideas) is not intended to impress or convince the Courts, but rather to impress the guru’s customer.” Well said, and well sourced, **Rick**. I doubt somehow that our OP will bother to read the entire decision. First, it is long (what? 185 pages or so?). Second, to fully get it, it is necessary to read the links to supporting decisions (in total, it took me two weeks to fully read _Meads_ and the supporting decisions, and I know how to read decisions); and lastly, and perhaps most importantly, _Meads_ does not support his argument. He will dismiss it out of hand. There are plenty of YouTube videos made by OPCA gurus explaining why _Meads_ is faulty somehow, why Rooke is wrong in his decision, and so on. I won’t say that the gurus are deluding themselves, but they are certainly deluding the people–like the OP–who buy this crap literally, and who buy it for good cash money. At best, the gurus are fraudsters and scamsters, and the OP would do well to avoid them. Their YouTube videos are wrong, their documents are wrong, their assertions as to how to get out of debt are wrong, and anybody who pays money to these “gurus,” is being ripped off. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/598 "2013-06-30T05:10:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As a lawyer, I can tell you that’s bullshit. > [@Spoons](#): > > I’m also a lawyer, and I call bullshit on that video too. **marcmcroy** , look what you have done: Two lawyers are in complete agreement. No equivocating. No weasel words. No drawn out “Welllll,” followed by some legal gibberish. Just flat out “That’s bullshit,” and “Yup. Sure is.” I hope you are proud of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/599 "2013-06-30T05:40:22Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > We’ve all seen the cartoons . Right? > We are past[this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ME7K6P7hlko) right? That’s absolutely hilarious. Thanks for the laugh. Even if this had any basis, since you as an actual person will be treated by real-world exactly as if you were identical to your “strawman” it makes no real difference, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/600 "2013-06-30T12:07:33Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **marcmcroy** , look what you have done: Two lawyers are in complete agreement. No equivocating. No weasel words. No drawn out “Welllll,” followed by some legal gibberish. Isn’t that one of the signs of the apocalypse? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=31)