# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/81 "2013-06-24T23:38:43Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Marc of the family Mcroy. I ask: > > Have you established joinder? > > :dubious: yes but without full disclosure which is now troubling me..thanks for asking ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/82 "2013-06-24T23:39:29Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > and force of law does not make it law Close enough for government work. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/83 "2013-06-24T23:40:15Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > yea but chandra dangi:) is my homie and ill fight to the end Do you have a claim against this message board? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/84 "2013-06-24T23:42:33Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > why do you keep saying law when it is statutes? Because statutes are a form of law. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/85 "2013-06-24T23:44:08Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > THats an L splc SPLC SOUTHERN POLICY LAW CENTER Southern **Poverty** Law Center. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/86 "2013-06-24T23:45:19Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I realize that I only own my house because all the rest of you have agreed to act as though I owned my house. If tomorrow you all change your minds and decide to act as if someone else owned my house, and when I tried to open the door some cops showed up and told me that if I didn’t leave they’d arrest me, and if I resisted arrest they’d shoot me, then that’s what would happen. > > My only recourse would be to try to convince the rest of you all that you should act as if the house was mine, see, I’ve paid such and such money to such and such bank, here’s the piece of paper I signed, and so on and so on. And if they don’t agree with me, then I’m fucked. The cops will arrest me if I don’t leave. And they won’t listen to me when I explain that free people can’t lose their rights. > > Of course free people can lose their rights. You think a negro slave in Alabama in 1845 would get much traction from his owner if the slave argued that he wasn’t a slave, he was a free human being? How did this free man get turned into a slave? By a bunch of people with guns and chains and locks and whips who were willing to use force if the slave didn’t obey. > > A slave might try to escape, or might obey but look for any chance to subvert the system, or might throw themselves himself off a bridge, or might get a rock and sneak into the owner’s plantation house at night and smash in his skull. But a slave wouldn’t be so foolish as to think that the slavemaster would be shocked into helplessness merely because the slave refused to recognize the master’s authority. we dont change our minds, you miss the tax notices after house mortgage was paid. you were in the hospital. your gov vaccine released the mercury and triggered a stroke.And the pice of paper said you were trustee resident no more no less. And no the guys with guns dont agree.out ya go..po lil slave should told us he didnt want the gilded shackles ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/87 "2013-06-24T23:45:39Z")
marcmcroy, I don’t want to be free. I don’t ever want to be free. I want to be a slave to the system, to the government, and to laws and rules that I have little hand in creating. You know why? Because in general, these laws are made by people like me, who have dealt with situations that I shouldn’t have to deal with, because each many need not burn his hand on the stove to learn that fire is hot, that should be information passed down to me by others who have not been so fortunate. And so I trade my freedom away. I trade it away to be safe when driving a car, knowing it has been made to standards that others have determined for my safety. I trade it away for food that is not spoiled, or rotten, or so covered with germs that it would kill me with one bite. I don’t want you to be free either. I want you to have to obey these same rules, because you obeying food safety means you can’t spit in my burger or leave it in a bloody raw puddle and serve it to me. I don’t want you to have your freedom because I want to make sure that when I go at a green light, that you’ll stop at your red light. I don’t want you to be free because I need to make sure that if you harm me, I can be sure the authorities can punish you so that it won’t happen again, and that they can do it to anyone who harms another in order to deter others. Your freedom and mine I would gladly trade in order to get the security that allows me to live a life that, even though I cannot randomly attack people on the streets, or sell a dangerous product that harms people, I can live my life comfortably so long as I’m not a sociopath. Your freedom is dangerous to me, and I mean that in every possible negative connotation, because if you insist on using your freedoms to do me or anyone else harm, then I will have to do the same. Then you would be in my position, trying to get someone else to remove my freedoms. Its better for us both to lose a little and gain a lot, than to lose a lot and gain what little semantic “freedoms” that amounts to not much more than bullshit in the real world ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/88 "2013-06-24T23:47:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Do you have a claim against this message board? implied contract you didn’t say otherwise ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/89 "2013-06-24T23:48:45Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > and force of law does not make it law The difference being? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/90 "2013-06-24T23:49:35Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > implied contract you didn’t say otherwise Ah huh, but I didn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/91 "2013-06-24T23:50:11Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > your gov vaccine released the mercury and triggered a stroke. Who released what in the trigger now?! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/92 "2013-06-24T23:51:24Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > implied contract you didn’t say otherwise This forum has a gold fringe, you have no power over us. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/93 "2013-06-24T23:52:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I realize that I only own my house because all the rest of you have agreed to act as though I owned my house. If tomorrow you all change your minds and decide to act as if someone else owned my house, and when I tried to open the door some cops showed up and told me that if I didn’t leave they’d arrest me, and if I resisted arrest they’d shoot me, then that’s what would happen. > > **My only recourse would be to try to convince the rest of you all** that you should act as if the house was mine, see, I’ve paid such and such money to such and such bank, here’s the piece of paper I signed, and so on and so on. And if they don’t agree with me, then I’m fucked. The cops will arrest me if I don’t leave. And they won’t listen to me when I explain that free people can’t lose their rights. Emphasis supplied. N.B., **marcmcroy:** There is no natural law. There are no natural rights. There is no Platonic realm outside of actual human society where you “really” have any right society denies you. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/94 "2013-06-24T23:54:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > marcmcroy, I don’t want to be free. I don’t ever want to be free. I want to be a slave to the system, to the government, and to laws and rules that I have little hand in creating. You know why? Because in general, these laws are made by people like me, who have dealt with situations that I shouldn’t have to deal with, because each many need not burn his hand on the stove to learn that fire is hot, that should be information passed down to me by others who have not been so fortunate. And so I trade my freedom away. I trade it away to be safe when driving a car, knowing it has been made to standards that others have determined for my safety. I trade it away for food that is not spoiled, or rotten, or so covered with germs that it would kill me with one bite. > > I don’t want you to be free either. I want you to have to obey these same rules, because you obeying food safety means you can’t spit in my burger or leave it in a bloody raw puddle and serve it to me. I don’t want you to have your freedom because I want to make sure that when I go at a green light, that you’ll stop at your red light. I don’t want you to be free because I need to make sure that if you harm me, I can be sure the authorities can punish you so that it won’t happen again, and that they can do it to anyone who harms another in order to deter others. > > Your freedom and mine I would gladly trade in order to get the security that allows me to live a life that, even though I cannot randomly attack people on the streets, or sell a dangerous product that harms people, I can live my life comfortably so long as I’m not a sociopath. Your freedom is dangerous to me, and I mean that in every possible negative connotation, because if you insist on using your freedoms to do me or anyone else harm, then I will have to do the same. Then you would be in my position, trying to get someone else to remove my freedoms. Its better for us both to lose a little and gain a lot, than to lose a lot and gain what little semantic “freedoms” that amounts to not much more than bullshit in the real world sooo you want to be a ward of the state, you dont think a moral person can rule themselves, you yourself said you have dealt with the situations.no rules kept them from doing such things did it?Do statutes against murder keep them from killing do statutes against theft keep them from stealing. So you now have laws against so many things .what has laws kept from happening May I ask? Please dont be afraid ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/95 "2013-06-24T23:56:44Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Ah huh, but I didn’t have to. but you could have if you didnt want the benefit ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/96 "2013-06-24T23:59:02Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Do statutes against murder keep them from killing do statutes against theft keep them from stealing. **To some degree,** certainly. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/97 "2013-06-25T00:01:02Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > but you could have if you didnt want the benefit Duh. I know that. Poseur. ETA: sorry for being blunt. Come back when you are ready. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/98 "2013-06-25T00:01:07Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > This is why we are special appearence before court there is no court of record when a free man is and questions of sovereign soul and jurisdiction of the human being are brought into question. You never know of our victories in claiming our being above the statutes that try to entrap us. It would be very harmful to the illusion if a court of record showed otherwise, wouldn’t you agree? So – there have been such victories? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/99 "2013-06-25T00:01:41Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > we dont change our minds, you miss the tax notices after house mortgage was paid. you were in the hospital. your gov vaccine released the mercury and triggered a stroke.And the pice of paper said you were trustee resident no more no less. And no the guys with guns dont agree.out ya go..po lil slave should told us he didnt want the gilded shackles If I am a slave, do you think I can stop being a slave just by not signing a piece of paper? If I am a slave, the only way I can expect to gain my freedom from my oppressors is by force. Yeah, you have to pay taxes on your property. Because if you stop paying taxes eventually the sheriff will come around and put you on the street, and they’ll sell your house to someone else to pay the delinquent taxes. That’s not nice, but that’s what’s going to happen. And if you follow your beliefs and don’t sign the papers and don’t agree to submit to their authority, and then you don’t pay your taxes, they’ll use force against you. You’ll go to court, and the judge will take your house away. And maybe you’ll still be the real owner in God’s eyes, but nobody else will act as if you’re the real owner. This is because, even if your natural rights come from God, it is up to human beings to enact those rights. And they don’t act as if those rights exist, it doesn’t do any good to complain about it, any more than it does any good to complain to the mugger who is robbing you at gunpoint. He’s got a gun pointed at you so he’s not going to listen to your mouth words, he’s going to take your property and if you don’t agree he’s going to shoot you in the face. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/100 "2013-06-25T00:02:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Emphasis supplied. N.B., **marcmcroy:** There is no natural law. There are no natural rights. There is no Platonic realm outside of actual human society where you “really” have any right society denies you. > **[Natural rights and legal rights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights)** > > Some philosophers distinguish two types of rights, natural rights and legal rights. > Natural law first appeared in ancient Greek philosophy, and was referred to by Roman philosopher Cicero. It was subsequently alluded to in the Bible, and then developed in the Middle Ages by Catholic philosophers such as Albert the Great, his pupil Thomas Aquinas, and Jean Gerson in his 1402 work "De Vita Spirituali Animae." During the Age of Enlightenment, the concept of natural laws was used to challenge the ... The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is an important legal instrument enshrining one conception of natural rights into international soft law. The legal philosophy known as Declarationism seeks to incorporate the natural rights philosophy of the United States Declaration of Independence into the body of American case law on a level with the United States Constitution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=6)