# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mr.Accident](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Mr.Accident](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Accident)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/121 "2013-06-25T01:08:43Z")
[QUOTE=marcmcroy] Do statutes against murder keep them from killing do statutes against theft keep them from stealing. So you now have laws against so many things .what has laws kept from happening May I ask? Please dont be afraid [/QUOTE] As a person from a family of liars, cheats’ and thieves; and being a reformed criminal myself, yes statutes do make a difference. More of my family would be on the streets robbing and conning people if it weren’t for various rules against such acts. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/122 "2013-06-25T01:20:17Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > your gov vaccine released the mercury and triggered a stroke. Why do you continue to do your arguments a disservice by spouting ridiculous arguments about maters that have been settled in fact. What’s next-- your view on 9/11, Flight 800? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/123 "2013-06-25T01:39:43Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I once saw a man dragged from a courtroom shouting at the top of his lungs that he was a sovereign citizen, that the indictment and judgment using all capital letters in spelling his name were shams and actually named a strawman, and that because he did not consent the court had no authority over him. The court disagreed and sentenced him to prison for bank robbery, and law enforcement then took him to prison and put him in a cell to serve his sentence. > > None of his arguments worked. They didn’t convince the law enforcement officials who arrested and tried him, they didn’t convince the judge who sentenced him, they didn’t convince any of the judges in the higher courts, and they didn’t convince the law enforcement officials who took him to prison and kept him there. If being a sovereign citizen didn’t work for him, what do you think it’s going to do for you? No response to this? Okay. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/124 "2013-06-25T01:44:14Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > and I want out of the club Fine. Leave the club’s _premises_ and you will be free of the club’s rules. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/125 "2013-06-25T01:53:21Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Why do you continue to do your arguments a disservice by spouting ridiculous arguments about maters that have been settled in fact. > > What’s next-- your view on 9/11, Flight 800? Apollo moon landing hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/126 "2013-06-25T01:54:25Z")
I want to be a free man on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/127 "2013-06-25T01:57:40Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Lemurs (i/ˈliːmər/ lee-mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Madagascar. The word “lemur” derives from the word lemures (ghosts or spirits) from Roman mythology and was first used to describe a slender loris due to its nocturnal habits and _ **slow pace** _, I have been puzzling over this and fail to see its relevance to the thread topic. Can anyone explain what this has to do with being free, sovereign whatever, and the temperature of spit in Topeka? > [@](#): > > why do you keep saying law when it is statutes? Because they’re the same thing. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Grammer nazis ya’ll are funny . I hope I’m not that difficult to read though, in all honesty. not my intent. Yes, you are difficult to read. Notice how many people have commented they thought you were making anti-Hispanic insults. We invented punctuation to make text easier to read. Try using more of it. > [@](#): > > If I don’t help protect the smallest of the smallest humans, Like I would if someone killed a kitten or a puppy then I am morally bankrupt . A fetus in the first trimester isn’t a human being. That’s why it’s called a fetus and not a person. I would have thought a sovereign citizen would understand the importance of such a distinction in terminology. > [@](#): > > Dont like MURDER well then don’t kill anyone .. WTF kind of statement is that? Don’t do things you don’t approve of. If you don’t like murder then a reasonable first step is _don’t kill other people_. If you don’t approve of abortion then don’t get one. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > sooo you want to be a ward of the state, you dont think a moral person can rule themselves, you yourself said you have dealt with the situations. A moral man doesn’t need rules… but most people need a LOT of them. Locks keep “honest” people honest. Laws delineate the boundaries and makes it easier for everyone to stay inside the lines. > [@](#): > > Please dont be afraid The only thing I’m afraid of here is getting a stitch in my side from laughing so hard at you. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is an important legal instrument enshrining one conception of natural rights into international soft law. No, it’s not. It’s not a law at all, it’s a list of ideals from the UN. > [@](#): > > The legal philosophy known as Declarationism seeks to incorporate the natural rights philosophy of the United States Declaration of Independence into the body of American case law on a level with the United States Constitution. The Declaration of Independence was never a document delineating law, nor was it ever intended to be. It wasn’t philosophy, it was a declaration of rebellion against the British Empire which then had to be enforced with guns and blood. I think your “Declarationism” is a very bad idea and I am opposed to it. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/128 "2013-06-25T01:58:55Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > come back we miss you FMOTL burn brightly but quickly. We cannot slow their journey, only enjoy the view. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/129 "2013-06-25T02:01:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > We invented punctuation to make text easier to read. Try using more of it. Punctuation wouldn’t have helped with SPLC/splc. Reading would be the cure, there. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/130 "2013-06-25T02:10:04Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Grammer nazis ya’ll are funny . Nope. We’re more into spelling. For example, it’s [y’all](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/y'all?s=t). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/131 "2013-06-25T02:17:48Z")
The real irony is that the one and only effect of the “freeman on the land” movement is to decrease the freedom of their members. Consider me, for instance: I can come and go wherever and whenever I please. If I want to go down the street to my mom’s house or across the ocean to the land of my ancestors, I can do it. I can pursue any job I want, and when I land one, I can use the money I get from it to buy a wide variety of things. The only cost I pay for this is that I have to give a very small percentage of what I earn to the government, and I have to be nice to other people (which I would have done anyway). All told, I’m pretty free. If other people were to say they wanted a life like mine, I’d understand entirely. But the Freeman on the Land doesn’t want to pay that very small price, declaring instead that any encroachment on his freedom whatsoever is intolerable. And what is the outcome of this? Instead of a small encroachment on his freedom, he gets a near-total loss of it. He’s free to move anywhere in a 10’ by 10’ cell, and to converse with anyone within the range of his shouting. He eats what the jailers serve him, sleeps where and when the jailers tell him, and has almost no opportunity for self-betterment. Rather than allowing the law to protect his freedom, he has instead forced the law to remove his freedom. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/132 "2013-06-25T02:18:19Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > and force of law does not make it law No. Force of government with the approval of the masses makes such force insurmountable, though. That’s all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/133 "2013-06-25T02:29:39Z")
> [@chronos](#): > > the real irony is that the one and only effect of the “freeman on the land” movement is to decrease the freedom of their members. Consider me, for instance: I can come and go wherever and whenever i please. If i want to go down the street to my mom’s house or across the ocean to the land of my ancestors, i can do it. I can pursue any job i want, and when i land one, i can use the money i get from it to buy a wide variety of things. The only cost i pay for this is that i have to give a very small percentage of what i earn to the government, and i have to be nice to other people (which i would have done anyway). All told, i’m pretty free. If other people were to say they wanted a life like mine, i’d understand entirely. > > But the freeman on the land doesn’t want to pay that very small price, declaring instead that any encroachment on his freedom whatsoever is intolerable. And what is the outcome of this? Instead of a small encroachment on his freedom, he gets a near-total loss of it. He’s free to move anywhere in a 10’ by 10’ cell, and to converse with anyone within the range of his shouting. He eats what the jailers serve him, sleeps where and when the jailers tell him, and has almost no opportunity for self-betterment. Rather than allowing the law to protect his freedom, he has instead forced the law to remove his freedom. Attica! Attica!! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/134 "2013-06-25T02:39:21Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Punctuation wouldn’t have helped with SPLC/splc. Reading would be the cure, there. Shhh. I was poking. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/135 "2013-06-25T02:39:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No. Force of government with the approval of the masses makes such force insurmountable, though. That’s all that matters. True. This is the bottom line reality. Stop trying to find some magic words in the Constitution or legal code or Black’s Law Dictionary that will give you the power. Those magic words don’t exist. If you’re waiting for the government to give your permission to be a Free Man, it’s never going to happen. If you really want to be a Free Man, just go ahead and do it. Just decide you’re an outlaw and declare you’re not bound by any laws other than your own. Stop asking the government to give you independence and just take it for yourself. The upside is you’ll have finally come up with a logically consistent program. The downside is you’re going to lose and maybe die in the process. You can declare your independence but the government isn’t going to recognize it. And you’re outnumbered three hundred million to one. The first time you there’s a disagreement between you and the United States, you’ll be squished like an ant. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/136 "2013-06-25T02:44:35Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! It’s Christmas!! > > Don’t you guys run him off! I want to hear all about this. I was going to say that with a join date of June 2013 that I bet we won’t see him in July 2013 but I think that after post #114 I’m too late. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/137 "2013-06-25T02:46:19Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > sooo you want to be a ward of the state, you dont think a moral person can rule themselves, you yourself said you have dealt with the situations.no rules kept them from doing such things did it?Do statutes against murder keep them from killing do statutes against theft keep them from stealing. So you now have laws against so many things .what has laws kept from happening May I ask? Please dont be afraid Yes, if by “ward of the state” you mean that I’m bound by the laws that make up this country. Most laws are good, some laws are bad, and if I disagree with any there are avenues to dispute those laws. A **moral** person may rule themselves, but there is no assurance that anybody is moral, nor is a moral person a competent person, an intelligent person, an ambitious person, or a reasonable person. Laws help to skew persons towards morality by force, because most people, even if they are moral, may not be those other things. Rules helped people to do the right thing, and whether you agree with it or not, you need those rules. Otherwise, nothing compels you to do right. And if you object to that, tell me, what compels me to be moral to you? The law, that’s what. And believe it or not, statutes against murder and stealing make a different. I guarantee you that without those laws, I will be murdering and stealing, and there is nothing you can do about it. So count your blessings that those statutes exist. I’m not going to try to convince you that I’m right and that you need to be a ward of the state. Instead, I’ll simply say that you’re arguing for immoral people. If you fancy yourself moral, then these laws do not affect you. If you’re immoral, then these laws need to be in place so you can be punished. Therefore, the laws are good, are moral, and are necessary. What you consider bad laws I consider the only thing stopping you from harming me. For that reason, you cannot have all your freedoms ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/138 "2013-06-25T02:50:12Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > No response to this? Okay. Now you’ve done it, scared him away. Just when he was getting interesting.☹ ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/139 "2013-06-25T02:55:33Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Now you’ve done it, scared him away. Just when he was getting interesting.☹ Sorry. I need to work on my game. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/140 "2013-06-25T03:02:04Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > … I think that after post #114 I’m too late. MAN OVERBOARD . . . err, man overboard, man over board or man bored over? (If this joke makes no sense, count yourself lucky!) CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=8)