# toward being a free man on the land **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826 "2013-06-24T21:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/141 "2013-06-25T03:21:42Z")
> [@Among\_Liberals](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > So – there have been such victories? > > His original quote doesn’t make much sense. The court has the power to quench any possible mention of these losses, but doesn’t have the power to say “nuh uh” in the first place? It’s part of the fundamental illogic of the freemen/sovereign citizen movement; the idea that the government is this tyranny engaged in a massive fraud & conspiracy, _yet at the same time_ it will be compelled to give way if you just utter the right [del]magic words[/del]legal formula. > [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@marcmcroy](#): > > > > Lemurs (i/ˈliːmər/ lee-mər) are a clade of strepsirrhine primates endemic to the island of Madagascar. The word “lemur” derives from the word lemures (ghosts or spirits) from Roman mythology and was first used to describe a slender loris due to its nocturnal habits and _ **slow pace** _, > > I have been puzzling over this and fail to see its relevance to the thread topic. Can anyone explain what this has to do with being free, sovereign whatever, and the temperature of spit in Topeka? It took me a bit to figure out, but it’s probably meant as an insult to **Lemur866** , whom he was quoting. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > MAN OVERBOARD . . . err, man overboard, man over board or man bored over? > (If this joke makes no sense, count yourself lucky!) > > CMC fnord! Sadly, I get it. fnord! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/142 "2013-06-25T03:29:26Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Now you’ve done it, scared him away. Just when he was getting interesting.☹ Stunned him just as he was waking up! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/143 "2013-06-25T03:33:20Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! It’s Christmas!! > > Don’t you guys run him off! I want to hear all about this. Oh well, maybe is my fault, in a different thread I talked about how some theories an opponent mentioned were just like the ones “tax evaders” had, I said it 3 times, and now it is like Candyman and Beetlejuice! ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/144 "2013-06-25T04:26:00Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > No response to this? Okay. he broke the law first, common law there was an injured party. someone was hurt, common law . Of course the courts had jurisdiction ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/145 "2013-06-25T04:27:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Oh well, maybe is my fault, in a different thread I talked about how some theories an opponent mentioned were just like the ones “tax evaders” had, I said it 3 times, and now it is like Candyman and Beetlejuice! nah ..still have a life thanx for missing me though ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/146 "2013-06-25T04:36:09Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Yes, if by “ward of the state” you mean that I’m bound by the laws that make up this country. Most laws are good, some laws are bad, and if I disagree with any there are avenues to dispute those laws. A **moral** person may rule themselves, but there is no assurance that anybody is moral, nor is a moral person a competent person, an intelligent person, an ambitious person, or a reasonable person. Laws help to skew persons towards morality by force, because most people, even if they are moral, may not be those other things. > > Rules helped people to do the right thing, and whether you agree with it or not, you need those rules. Otherwise, nothing compels you to do right. And if you object to that, tell me, what compels me to be moral to you? The law, that’s what. And believe it or not, statutes against murder and stealing make a different. I guarantee you that without those laws, I will be murdering and stealing, and there is nothing you can do about it. So count your blessings that those statutes exist. > > I’m not going to try to convince you that I’m right and that you need to be a ward of the state. Instead, I’ll simply say that you’re arguing for immoral people. If you fancy yourself moral, then these laws do not affect you. If you’re immoral, then these laws need to be in place so you can be punished. Therefore, the laws are good, are moral, and are necessary. What you consider bad laws I consider the only thing stopping you from harming me. For that reason, you cannot have all your freedoms Whose laws are of the highest order? I believe Gods laws to be the of the highest order. I believe the golden rule of love your enemies, then followed by the 10 commandments to be enough. Why do you need state statutes forcing a person to wear your seat belt . It’s because you are an owned piece of property the PTB want you around to pay more taxes it has nothing to do with your safety its about the corporations property rights. Yes its true you don’t even own your own flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/147 "2013-06-25T04:42:15Z")
God doesn’t exist. And even if he did, God’s laws are impotent. We the people make the laws, and we the people enforce them, through our public servants, the police and the courts. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/148 "2013-06-25T04:42:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The real irony is that the one and only effect of the “freeman on the land” movement is to decrease the freedom of their members. Consider me, for instance: I can come and go wherever and whenever I please. If I want to go down the street to my mom’s house or across the ocean to the land of my ancestors, I can do it. I can pursue any job I want, and when I land one, I can use the money I get from it to buy a wide variety of things. The only cost I pay for this is that I have to give a very small percentage of what I earn to the government, and I have to be nice to other people (which I would have done anyway). All told, I’m pretty free. If other people were to say they wanted a life like mine, I’d understand entirely. > > But the Freeman on the Land doesn’t want to pay that very small price, declaring instead that any encroachment on his freedom whatsoever is intolerable. And what is the outcome of this? Instead of a small encroachment on his freedom, he gets a near-total loss of it. He’s free to move anywhere in a 10’ by 10’ cell, and to converse with anyone within the range of his shouting. He eats what the jailers serve him, sleeps where and when the jailers tell him, and has almost no opportunity for self-betterment. Rather than allowing the law to protect his freedom, he has instead forced the law to remove his freedom. Frank Zappa quote “The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.” ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/149 "2013-06-25T04:44:13Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > God doesn’t exist. And even if he did, God’s laws are impotent. We the people make the laws, and we the people enforce them, through our public servants, the police and the courts. ..so you need enslavement as your higher authority I have mine elsewhere ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/150 "2013-06-25T04:48:14Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Why do you continue to do your arguments a disservice by spouting ridiculous arguments about maters that have been settled in fact. > > What’s next-- your view on 9/11, Flight 800? Now, whose the illiterate? did ya’ll settle my mators or what? is dat a fact:smack: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/151 "2013-06-25T04:53:57Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > nah ..still have a life thanx for missing me though Read it again, I was \*\*not \*\*missing you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/152 "2013-06-25T04:54:28Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > Now, whose the illiterate? did ya’ll settle my mators or what? is dat a fact:smack: [This guy](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/23/noah-boyce-michigan-teen-first-birthday_n_3474025.html) is an illiterate. The reason he’s an illiterate is because his parents are those “fee man on the land” types. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/153 "2013-06-25T04:54:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > True. This is the bottom line reality. Stop trying to find some magic words in the Constitution or legal code or Black’s Law Dictionary that will give you the power. Those magic words don’t exist. If you’re waiting for the government to give your permission to be a Free Man, it’s never going to happen. > > If you really want to be a Free Man, just go ahead and do it. Just decide you’re an outlaw and declare you’re not bound by any laws other than your own. Stop asking the government to give you independence and just take it for yourself. > > The upside is you’ll have finally come up with a logically consistent program. The downside is you’re going to lose and maybe die in the process. You can declare your independence but the government isn’t going to recognize it. And you’re outnumbered three hundred million to one. The first time you there’s a disagreement between you and the United States, you’ll be squished like an ant. I believe it was the magic words that enslaved you. Conjured up a person that is not real or flesh but strictly a corporate entity to allow the flesh and blood to intermingle in the commerce corporate code and the Kayaker was correct in asking about the joinder to create the trust . It really is hocus pocus you elude to, its not real. My Creator is more apparent to me then this made up matrix paradigm you subscribe to. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/154 "2013-06-25T04:59:02Z")
Kayaker was mocking you. Joinder in the sense you mean is nonsense. The dichotomy between legal and flesh and blood people is nonsense. If you want to disentangle yourself, you’ll have to somehow convince an entire nation to upend its entire judicial system because you personally find it onerous. No court will find itself irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![thicksantorum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@thicksantorum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thicksantorum)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/155 "2013-06-25T05:02:27Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I believe It doesn’t matter what you believe. Reality doesn’t care what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/156 "2013-06-25T05:07:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, I’m a lawyer and I’ve heard judges talk, in continuing-legal-education classes, about hearing cases involving “sovereign citizens” and such. The consensus is “they speak some kind of language of their own” and their arguments are not to be taken seriously. But nobody mentioned, and I’ve never heard of, any practice of dismissing the court reporter or keeping the case out of the records or anything when such a party comes before the bench. And if such a thing had happened I **would** have heard of it – **everybody** would have, because it’s a story with news value and not something that can be done secretly. okay okay member of the bar… so when you saw me drawing distinction between law and statute why didn’t you raise a word Do you believe we as a nation are a bankrupt corporation? Do you believe our statutes are a result of our president “Commander in Chief” using his war powers to eavesdrop on your facebook and fly drones in the states against civilians. Let’s not tippy toe anymore. Your goverment will fire on you with their assault rifles. It’s happening everyday mate. Are you not gonna stand up? It’s all good till the stormtroopers foot is on your neck ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/157 "2013-06-25T05:09:14Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > ..so you need enslavement as your higher authority I have mine elsewhere Your “authority” is imaginary, and the rule of law isn’t “enslavement”. It is in fact what prevents enslavement, since if someone tried to enslave me people with guns and badges would haul him off and toss him into prison. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Whose laws are of the highest order? I believe Gods laws to be the of the highest order. I believe the golden rule of love your enemies, then followed by the 10 commandments to be enough. Well, too bad for you because there is no god of any kind, and even if there were he, she or it has no legal authority whatsoever. > [@marcmcroy](#): > > Why do you need state statutes forcing a person to wear your seat belt. Because it cuts down on the cost to society of people being crippled & killed by their own stupidity. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Kayaker was mocking you. > > Joinder in the sense you mean is nonsense. Yes. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joinder) is what “joinder” actually means, and it has nothing to do with the wacky freeman/SC use of the term. ---
**Author:** ![marcmcroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@marcmcroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marcmcroy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/158 "2013-06-25T05:09:43Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Kayaker was mocking you. > > Joinder in the sense you mean is nonsense. The dichotomy between legal and flesh and blood people is nonsense. If you want to disentangle yourself, you’ll have to somehow convince an entire nation to upend its entire judicial system because you personally find it onerous. No court will find itself irrelevant. thats an assumption mate erroneous at that. Contractual law is what its all about. You haven’t been keeping up. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/159 "2013-06-25T05:13:10Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > so when you saw me drawing distinction between law and statute why didn’t you raise a word > Do you believe we as a nation are a bankrupt corporation? > Do you believe our statutes are a result of our president “Commander in Chief” using his war powers to eavesdrop on your facebook and fly drones in the states against civilians. > Let’s not tippy toe anymore. Your goverment will fire on you with their assault rifles. In order, the distinction you draw is imaginary, America is neither bankrupt nor a corporation, your third claim is just bizarre, and no, they probably _aren’t_ going to shoot me with their assault rifles any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826/160 "2013-06-25T05:16:45Z")
> [@marcmcroy](#): > > I believe it was the magic words that enslaved you. Conjured up a person that is not real or flesh but strictly a corporate entity to allow the flesh and blood to intermingle in the commerce corporate code and the Kayaker was correct in asking about the joinder to create the trust . It really is hocus pocus you elude to, its not real. My Creator is more apparent to me then this made up matrix paradigm you subscribe to. I’m afraid you will have to use the magic of technology to see the end result of that kind of magical thought when you eventually use those ideas in the real word: https://www.youtube.com/embed/A7U5eJN3hLI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque [http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top\_stories/story/Idaho-man-Tased-in-court/IMGrKmGofkyauI\_Co3dR7w.cspx](http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Idaho-man-Tased-in-court/IMGrKmGofkyauI_Co3dR7w.cspx) > [@](#): > > But, he was breaking the rules. From the moment Peterson walked into courthouse, his camera was rolling. That’s not allowed in Idaho courts. Peterson found his seat in the courtroom, but his camera immediately caught the attention of a nearby bailiff. An argument began, and Peterson was ushered out of the courtroom. > > Later, outside in the hall, Peterson was standing by as the courtroom cleared. He tried to enter again. At that point, the bailiffs had enough. Peterson was tased, cuffed and taken to jail. That’s where he now sits, facing a $50,000 bail, and three counts of battery and criminal contempt. You are warned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toward-being-a-free-man-on-the-land/661826.md?page=9)