# Town/City names butchered by Americanization **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042 "2010-11-09T15:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/101 "2010-11-10T17:50:56Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Serious question: what has caused the erosion of in particular the much older francophone and Spanish names? One would imagine when these places were named they approximated the original pronunciation - yet there are so many mismatches, are we to assume that English speakers simply overwhelmed the original populations and pronounced it as it was spelled? Or is there something else going on? In at least one case, it was spelled as it was (mis)pronounced. Somewhere between 1853 and 1858 a group of settlers from North Carolina pushed to have their small town in Missouri named after the capital of their old state. They spelled it like they said it, and the town was christened Rolla. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/102 "2010-11-10T17:55:49Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > Only by those who pronounce Wapakoneta “Wapkon.” Silly girl! Everyone knows that it’s pronounced Wapak! (WAH-pawk) It’s the county seat of Auglaize (AW-glaze) County. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/103 "2010-11-10T18:00:29Z")
There’s Pompeii, MI, pronounced by the locals as “Pompy-eye”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/104 "2010-11-10T18:12:56Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > It may be more regionalization than Americanization that can be blamed for some that I’ve found interesting: > > Jur-dun for Jordan The personal name “Jordan” is also sometimes pronounced this way, viz., Carter aide Hamilton Jordan. > [@](#): > > Huh-lee-nuh for Helena This also sounds like an acceptable alternative pronunciation of the name. > [@](#): > > Muffs-burr for Murfreesboro > Sheb-vull for Shelbyville Aren’t these just examples of people talking fast? ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/105 "2010-11-10T18:29:26Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Aren’t these just examples of people talking fast? In some instances, that’s true. In others it’s just the regionalism at work. Anything with -ville in it is going to vary from -vul to -vil to -ful and other variants. Think of how many ways you’ve heard Nashville, Louisville, Knoxville and such pronounced. Even natives have their preferences. As for people’s names being off-standard in their pronunciation, there are too many to name, but one I particularly find puzzling is Taliaferro pronounced Tolliver. And Bethshears as Busheers. Goode is another. Is it Good or Gude? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/106 "2010-11-10T20:16:46Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > My grandmother used to live in a gated community in Orange County called Casta del Sol. I have no idea what people were thinking when they came up with that one. > [@Nava](#): > > 1. the names weren’t always given by speakers of the original language;… Southern California–and in particular Orange County–is smothered with “communities” and streets with Spanish names that were obviously contrived by (probably) non-Spanish speakers. This is an aesthetic phenomenon I call “neo-Spanish-colonial nostalgia,” and it’s applied by developers of recent suburban expansion, no doubt in order to infuse a sense of “romantic charm” and “history” to what are essentially cookie-cutter streets and houses that have been suddenly plopped down in the middle of a vast, barren, sage-brush expanse. The results are blatantly obvious: Names like Calle de las Estrellas, Caminito Grande, and Via buen Corazon, clearly are pulled out of a hat, and bear little or no resemblance to true Spanish, original place and street names, which are usually idiosyncratic. Many organic Spanish place and street names come from the names of the Spanish land grant ranchos that the Californios owned. Sometimes these were the family names of the owners (Los Feliz), but usually they were named for some kind of topographical characteristic. Hence, we have La Brea (“the tar”) coming from Rancho La Brea, or La Cienega (“the marsh”) from Rancho la Cienega O’ Paso de la Tijera (the “scissors” from the crisscross of the roads). Compare these real Spanish names to the fabricated ones, like the ultimate stupid psuedo-Spanish name: “Buena Park.” ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/107 "2010-11-10T20:57:39Z")
Another example from here in Connecticut, apparently Biblically-inspired: [ul][li]Hebron, CT (pronounced “hee-bron”)[/ul][/li](There’s also Lebanon, CT and Bozrah, CT.) ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/108 "2010-11-10T21:18:04Z")
I forgot to mention Havre de Grace, Maryland (“Haver dee grayss”). And I WILL use it when a pun thread involving place names comes along. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/109 "2010-11-10T21:44:30Z")
Nobody seems to have mentioned New Orleans yet: aw-LEENZ rather than the French aw-LEE-on. Someone higher up the thread said St Louis is pronounced the French way. Maybe sometimes, but in the U.S. I think I have heard “St Lewis” much more often (and I lived there, briefly). People in Louisville Kentucky call their city something like “Luv-VIL” (not so much anglicized as very tightly compressed). ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/110 "2010-11-10T22:33:20Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Southern California–and in particular Orange County–is smothered with “communities” and streets with Spanish names that were obviously contrived by (probably) non-Spanish speakers. Let’s not forget the obvious – the corruption of the pronunciation of El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/111 "2010-11-10T22:37:04Z")
Screwed up French pronunciations: Pierre, SD (from French word for 'stone") is pronounced “PEER.” Boise, ID (pronounced "Bwah-ZAY in French; it means “Woodsy”) is pronounced “BOY-zee.” - In Central Texas, there are all kinds of messed up Spanish and German prnounciations. Gruene, TX is prnounced “Green.” The Guadalupe River is pronounced “GWAH-duh-loop.” Manchaca is pronounced “MAN-shack.” - Of course, England had some strange geographical pronounciations before anyone knew America existed- I mean, the English think “Featherstonehaugh” is pronounced “Fanshaw” and “Cholmondeley” is pronounced “Chumley.” So, what hope was there once English settlers started trying to pronounce Indian, German or French names i nthe Americas? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/112 "2010-11-10T22:40:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Boise, ID (pronounced "Bwah-ZAY in French; it means “Woodsy”) is pronounced “BOY-zee.” “BOY-see” by the locals. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/113 "2010-11-10T23:00:50Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Let’s not forget the obvious – the corruption of the pronunciation of El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula. That’s not fake Spanish, though. That’s a legitimate Spanish name that acquired a mangled Anglicized version. I wonder what people called LA back in the day, though. Was it always Los Ángeles? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/114 "2010-11-10T23:08:30Z")
[quote=“robby, post:107, topic:560042”] Another example from here in Connecticut, apparently Biblically-inspired: [ul][li]Hebron, CT (pronounced “hee-bron”)[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Oh, well, loads of Biblically-named places in the US are pronounced very differently from how the originals are pronounced by modern people, but I don’t know which is really _correct_. There’s a Rehoboth Beach in Delaware. I don’t know how it’s pronounced there, but I doubt it’s pronounced Re-ho-VOT, which is how Israelis refer to its namesake. I’ve been to the original Bethesda, which is not a city in Maryland, but a small spring in Jerusalem, where it’s Beit Hisda. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/115 "2010-11-11T00:15:04Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > There’s a Rehoboth Beach in Delaware. I don’t know how it’s pronounced there, but I doubt it’s pronounced Re-ho-VOT, which is how Israelis refer to its namesake. R∂-HOE-b∂th. (Are the schwas coming through ok?) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/116 "2010-11-11T01:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] Of course, England had some strange geographical pronounciations before anyone knew America existed- I mean, the English think “Featherstonehaugh” is pronounced “Fanshaw” and “Cholmondeley” is pronounced “Chumley.” So, what hope was there once English settlers started trying to pronounce Indian, German or French names i nthe Americas? [/QUOTE] Amen. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/117 "2010-11-11T01:54:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > My favorite is the town of Hialeah, surrounded by Miami. Apparently the name Hialeah is a bastardization of Jai-Alai (meaning both one of a type of sports played by hitting a ball against a wall, and the location where these sports are played), it’s how someone wrote the Basque word using English phonetics. But the way the town’s name is pronounced is “Haya LEEah”, it’s got an extra “ah” and the last two vowels inverted. > . I’m not sure if I get your point, but the town name of “hialeah” has nothing to do with the name of the game “Jai-Alai.” [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hialeah,_Florida) ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/118 "2010-11-11T02:26:59Z")
I’m surprised that Detroit only got one mention so far. In French, it’s closer to “dai twah”. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/119 "2010-11-11T07:37:17Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Illinois is a serial offender. > Bourbonnais. Pronounced “Bur-BONE-ess.” Not anymore. Some years back they decided to go to a ‘correct’ pronunciation. So now it’s Bur-bon-AY. Kind of messes up the rhythm of the name of the local high school: Bradley-Bourbonnais. Or at least to my ears. On the other hand, out west of here a ways there’s Marseilles. (Mar-SAYLS) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042/120 "2010-11-11T09:04:03Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Let’s not forget the obvious – the corruption of the pronunciation of El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula. I was watching Crow: City of Angels the other day, in English, and at some point the Crow calls one of the other guys “angelito” - only, he pronounces it with neither the “y” Americans use for Los Angeles nor the aspirated h or harsh J it would carry in Spanish, it was a soft g. The actor’s name is an extremely Hispanic Pérez, but he’s French-Swiss… **Kyla** , I strongly doubt anybody used the whole kit and caboodle outside of official papers. The most common name would, indeed, have been Los Ángeles, similar to how nowadays people only say “Tudela de Duero” to distinguish it from the several-provinces-away Tudela (no extras, aka “Tudela de Ebro” or “Tudela de Navarra” but again only to distinguish it from its de Duero sister). **samclem** , linky not working right now, but my info comes from Hialeños (sorry, can’t link conversations) and there has been a Jai-Alai in the area since before the town incorporated. As I said, Jai-Alai is both one of a family of games and the place where they are played. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/town-city-names-butchered-by-americanization/560042.md?page=7)