# Toyota and unintended acceleration **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028 "2016-08-26T17:30:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/21 "2016-08-28T11:08:01Z")
What would happen if you throw the car in to neutral. Wouldn’t it slow down? ---
**Author:** ![DrTnt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/74df32/32.png) [@DrTnt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrTnt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/22 "2016-08-28T12:52:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I can easily accept that a driver might not be able to brake to a halt in time; I was only doubting the idea that the driver couldn’t brake to a halt at all. > > That a runaway accelerator might lead to an accident…yeah. I can see that easily. That it leads to the driver being “trapped on the freeway, unable to stop until he runs out of gas,” I’m really dubious. The YouTube video I referenced does indeed show an adult male completely unable to stop the car with a brake. Starting at 1:40 into the video (but watch the whole thing for context) “… I’ve lost power assist. I cannot slow this vehicle down. I’m pushing with all my might.” And each time he pumps the brakes he loses more power assist until at the end he’s going 80 mph despite full pressure on the brake pedal. “I’m powerless to slow this vehicle down” at about 2:00. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZZNR9O3xZM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZZNR9O3xZM) So, yeah, you can be unable to stop if all you are trying is the brake. In other words, the brakes DO NOT always overcome the engine, which was the original point I was trying to make. As to why not try something else, it is easy for us to simply say drivers should do better. But in a crisis with a lay driver it is reasonable to expect that a driver will only try to do what they have been trained to do, which is stopping car by pressing harder on the brakes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/23 "2016-08-28T19:40:19Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What would happen if you throw the car in to neutral. Wouldn’t it slow down? Sure. Now try to think of that when all this is happening. You are trying to cut off the engine, but you cant do that with a Toyota. The brakes are not beating the engine. You dont have the time or presence of mind to think of neutral. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/24 "2016-08-28T20:37:47Z")
See that’s what great about my hyper-vigilant anxiety. I am always thinking about what could go horribly wrong in any situation and what’d I do. Yay, me! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/25 "2016-08-28T20:39:02Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > See that’s what great about my hyper-vigilant anxiety. I am always thinking about what could go horribly wrong in any situation and what’d I do. Yay, me! Perhaps, but when you actually _are_ panicking, would you? But yes, it is a good idea to run thru hypotheticals in your head. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/26 "2016-08-28T21:17:44Z")
I’m actually very good in an emergency due to the fact that I’m always running scenarios in my head. It’s not a positive thing. It’s called hyper vigilance and is an effect of trauma. Anyway, I wasn’t actually asking as strategy for myself or anyone else. I was asking a mechanical question about cars. It was unrelated to the issue of how I’d personally react in an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/27 "2016-08-29T12:19:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are trying to cut off the engine, but you cant do that with a Toyota. If you’re talking about the keyless system, you can shut off the engine by holding down the button for three seconds. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/28 "2016-08-29T13:43:21Z")
Two things folks haven’t mentioned yet. … 1. If the engine is stuck in mid to high throttle, it can run that way for hours. The brakes, even if the vacuum assist is working perfectly, can only absorb so much heat before they fail to produce friction. So if you stomp on the brakes the car may well slow some, then as the brakes overheat they will lose effectiveness and away you go. Modern 4-wheel disc brakes can absorb a shitload of heat. Not so drum brakes. Which are still are fitted to some wheels of some cheaper cars. And even 4-wheel discs have a finite heat capacity. I don’t know how long they’d last against a moderately high throttle engine. A couple minutes of continuous application? Sure. 10 minutes? Maybe. An hour? No way. 1. Both shifting into neutral and pressing the engine off button will solve the problem. IF the problem is mechanical. But if the computer that’s controlling the engine throttle has gone stupid/crashed, well that’s the same computer that’s listening to the electrical switch that you think is a gear shift handle. And to the electrical switch behind the engine on/off button. Once the computer is going crazy and not listening to some inputs (e.g. throttle pedal position) there’s no reason to assume it is correctly listening to all the others (e.g. gear shift handle position and engine on/off button). There’s no guarantee any given software glitch will make the computer deaf to all inputs. But folks who think the gear shift handle or the on/off button are some sort of higher-level override are guilty of thinking these cars are like old-fashioned mechanical cars. Which they (mostly) are not. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/29 "2016-08-29T14:07:03Z")
> [@Krouget](#): > > If you’re talking about the keyless system, you can shut off the engine by holding down the button for three seconds. After Toyota’s unintended accel problem came to light, a lot more people learned about this fact. But beforehand, relatively few people knew. There were people saying that they pressed the start/stop button, but the engine wouldn’t shut off. They were accustomed to just briefly pushing the button, which works fine when the car is stopped and in Park, but didn’t know that when it’s in drive and moving, you had to hold the button down for three seconds. I would bet that most buyers aren’t informed of this important point - or least they weren’t, prior to the unintended accel problem hitting the news. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/30 "2016-08-29T14:19:12Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Two things folks haven’t mentioned yet. … > > 1. If the engine is stuck in mid to high throttle, it can run that way for hours. The brakes, even if the vacuum assist is working perfectly, can only absorb so much heat before they fail to produce friction. So if you stomp on the brakes the car may well slow some, then as the brakes overheat they will lose effectiveness and away you go. > > Modern 4-wheel disc brakes can absorb a shitload of heat. Not so drum brakes. Which are still are fitted to some wheels of some cheaper cars. > > And even 4-wheel discs have a finite heat capacity. I don’t know how long they’d last against a moderately high throttle engine. A couple minutes of continuous application? Sure. 10 minutes? Maybe. An hour? No way. I don’t think there’s a car on the market which can “overpower” its own brakes. the main concern with a throttle stuck partially open is the loss of manifold vacuum. once you’ve hit the brakes more than once or twice, you’ve used up the stored vacuum assist in the brake booster, and any further attempt to brake means you’re going to have to stand on the pedal. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/31 "2016-08-29T14:32:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They didn’t pay a $1.2 billion fine for nothing. Tell that to Dow Corning, who were sued into bankruptcy for vague “health problems” resulting from “faulty breast implants,” when even at the time the science showed it to be bunk–or the GMO industry, which is currently being required to put “scare labels” on their products, again in disregard for any actual science. (Or alternatively, the homeopathic remedy industry, which currently occupies half the shelf space at drugstores near me, despite those pesky facts telling us they _don’t_ work). The law and facts have–at best–a passing relationship. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/32 "2016-08-29T15:38:20Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I don’t think there’s a car on the market which can “overpower” its own brakes. In [Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COrRpoOeBsU) (about 17 minutes in) he very much asserts the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/33 "2016-08-29T16:21:51Z")
There’s also a big difference between these two scenarios: 1. From a standing start, press full force on the brake then also full force on the accelerator. 2. From a steady 40, 50, 60, or 70 mph press full force on the brake then also full force on the accelerator. Or in the other order. While steering with / through traffic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/34 "2016-08-29T17:03:49Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Tell that to Dow Corning, who were sued into bankruptcy for vague “health problems” resulting from “faulty breast implants,” when even at the time the science showed it to be bunk–or the GMO industry, which is currently being required to put “scare labels” on their products, again in disregard for any actual science. > The law and facts have–at best–a passing relationship. Yes, you can sometimes convince a jury of something that sounds plausible but is false. Note the difference between "\*sued’ \*and _“fined”._ Toyota \*also \*paid billions in lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028/35 "2016-08-30T11:17:56Z")
"Vehicle tests confirmed that one particular dead task would result in loss of throttle control, and that the driver might have to fully remove their foot from the brake during an unintended acceleration event before being able to end the unwanted acceleration. " Here’s a [summary](http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--Bad-design-and-its-consequences), and here is a longer [discussion](http://www.embedded.com/electronics-blogs/barr-code/4214602/Unintended-acceleration-and-other-embedded-software-bugs) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-and-unintended-acceleration/764028.md?page=1)