# Toyota poised to be top car seller in US, what's wrong with the Big 3 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863 "2003-08-31T22:02:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ace\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ace\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace_Face)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/41 "2003-09-04T03:22:09Z")
Build quality is a big problem, but design is just as big an issue IMO. Just when I think GM is getting over the tacky, Homer-mobile designs, they come out with something like the Aztek. Ford and Chrysler also have crappy designs overall, but I’ve noticed some real improvement in recent years. GM is hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/42 "2003-09-04T06:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Computer Guru \* > \*\*I’ve seen some huge pickup trucks out there with huge beds, but I don’t think you will find any foreign car companies with them. Maybe a Toyota Tacoma? \*\* The Tacoma is Toyota’s smaller truck – the larger Tundra is (IMO) comparable with the F-150. Also notable are the Nissan Frontier and upcoming Titan. Interestingly enough, Lincoln tried to put out a luxury pickup, probably hoping to repeat their success with the Navigator luxury SUV – the result, the Blackwood, sold quite poorly. I don’t have much experience with brand-new American cars, as my family prefers to buy used instead of paying off vehicles for years, but I have a feeling that part of the American manufacturers’ problem is a legacy from the years when there was a _huge_ difference in quality between American cars and imports. I’ll bet people tend to keep past experiences solidly in mind when shopping for a new car. For example, my experience with the various Japanese cars my family has owned (a Mazda something-or-other, a Civic stationwagon, a 1980 Corolla which still runs perfectly, and even my brother’s Chevy(/Isuzu) Luv) when compared to the American cars we’ve owned (an '89 Taurus ‘totalled’ by a fenderbender and salvaged, and a Vega that netted my mom a whopping $10 for the tires when she junked it) and the American cars my friends have owned (Blazer, Bronco, another Taurus, Escape, etc) led me to focus exclusively on Japanese cars when I was looking for a vehicle for myself. For my limited budget, I knew that a Japanese car was more likely to be dependable and cheap to fix than any American car I could get for the same price. The result, my beloved '89 Accord, runs nicely and wouldn’t have needed any expensive repairs if the place the previous owner took it for the scheduled timing belt replacement hadn’t botched the job in such a way that I needed to replace the timing belt again not long after I got it. I have a point in all this anecdotal blather, really. I think there was a noticeable decline in quality in American cars for a decade or so, and those years of cars have turned a lot of potential buyers off of American cars, just based on their experiences. It will take a lot of surveys and dependability studies before I could forget what it means to have a Ford “legacy car” (one that they no longer support). I agree with **Ace\_Face** that GM has put out some seriously fugly cars recently, but alas they are not alone in this – take a look at the Honda Element and its only slightly less fugly Toyota takeoff, the Scion. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/43 "2003-09-04T06:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace\_Face \* > Build quality is a big problem, but design is just as big an issue IMO. Just when I think GM is getting over the tacky, Homer-mobile designs, they come out with something like the Aztek. To be fair, I believe the Japanese don’t ship their ugly designs to the North American market. They test out everything in Asia, and the ones that don’t make people go “yuck” end up on our shores. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/44 "2003-09-04T09:46:00Z")
RJ: Says the man who has yet to see the Xb. God, Scion, what ugly ugly stuff. Still, the Matrix is quite an excellent car. I’m torn between it and a WRX wagon right now, after having made strong efforts to pick up a SVT Focus, and found it impossible to buy, thanks to highly entertaining dealership tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/45 "2003-09-04T10:58:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace\_Face \* > \*\*Build quality is a big problem, but design is just as big an issue IMO. Just when I think GM is getting over the tacky, Homer-mobile designs, they come out with something like the Aztek. Ford and Chrysler also have crappy designs overall, but I’ve noticed some real improvement in recent years. GM is hopeless. \*\* GM is improving big time. I hardly have any problems with their cars. And if you want to talk about ugly cars, the Honda Element, the new Toyota SUV (For the younger folks), the new accord. Of course, this is just my opinion. I see many more GM vehicles out there than I do of any car company. ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/46 "2003-09-04T11:01:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragonblink \* > \*\* > I have a point in all this anecdotal blather, really. I think there was a noticeable decline in quality in American cars for a decade or so, and those years of cars have turned a lot of potential buyers off of American cars, just based on their experiences. It will take a lot of surveys and dependability studies before I could forget what it means to have a Ford “legacy car” (one that they no longer support). > \*\* According to the JD power whoever, GM has been increasing their quality, and are above average in quality according to them. ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/47 "2003-09-04T11:06:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muldoon’s Squishiness \* > \*\*Here’s the thing. Yes, Chevy is coming out with a replacement for the Malibu, which Chevy no doubt claims with be an exponential improvement in every way over the malibu. Which it may well be. But the Malibu lagged fairly far behind the “imports” in all of the quality surveys. And the thing that the Big 3 don’t seem to get is that they can’t afford to be "_just as good_ as the Japanese automakers quality/service wise if they expect to stop losing market share. **They have to be better.** But to do so would mean the Big 3 would have to partially reinvent a good bit of their car-making procedures, which would cost lots and lots and lots of money, which would mean that they would have to make cuts in other areas. It would wind up being quite like a vicious circle, but the Big 3 have no one but themselves to blame. \*\* I read somewhere, maybe on [cnn.com](http://cnn.com), that GM copied the production techniques of Toyota, since Toyota is the best in this area. Also, GM and Toyota have contracts with each other. One more thing that I know is that GM sells its electronics to Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, and probably other car companies. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/48 "2003-09-04T14:30:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beryl\_Mooncalf \* > All things considered, If only dreams came true, I think that new Infinity G-35 coupe would fit nicely in my garage. Mmmmmm… vehicular porn… Someday it will be mine. _\_ I’ll 2nd or 3rd the opinion that the root cause is unions. - Excessive amounts of money tied up in “lifetime” benefits, etc. rob the Big 3 of funds necessary for modernization, QA, etc. - Lack of flexibility between management & workforce due to unions to allow dynamic adjustments to the market. - Old school reliability on unions & lobbyists inhibits innovation. _\_ MeanJoe ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/49 "2003-09-04T19:36:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Computer Guru \* > \*\*According to the JD power whoever, GM has been increasing their quality, and are above average in quality according to them. \*\* That’s my point – I think American cars have caught back up to the imports, but so many people were turned off by years of poor quality and indifferent support that it will take them some time to win those customers back. ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/50 "2003-09-04T22:55:15Z")
I just saw a commerical for the new Nissan Qwest minivan. Wow!!!. Even as a GM fan, I was really impressed with this minivan. ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/51 "2003-09-04T22:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Computer Guru \* > \*\*I just saw a commerical for the new Nissan Qwest minivan. Wow!!!. Even as a GM fan, I was really impressed with this minivan. \*\* [http://www.nissanusa.com/](http://www.nissanusa.com/) Click on the 2004 Qwest (Quest) link ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/52 "2003-09-04T23:00:17Z")
[a better link](http://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/ModelHomePage/0,,29706,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Muldoon\_s\_Squishiness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Muldoon\_s\_Squishiness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muldoon_s_Squishiness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/53 "2003-09-05T00:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragonblink \* > **I have a feeling that part of the American manufacturers’ problem is a legacy from the years when there was a _huge_ difference in quality between American cars and imports. I’ll bet people tend to keep past experiences solidly in mind when shopping for a new car.** The thing is even when there was a quality gap, and the Americans were ahead, it didn’t last long at all, and even when the US had the lead, the Big 3’s cars still had incredibly crappy reliability. The way of thinking at the Big 3 during the 1950’s all the way thru to the early 1970’s was pretty much, “_Don’t worry about quality, because people buy a new car every 3 years._” Now **that** is an incredibly shortsighted, not to mention stupid manner in which to have your qulaity control run, in fact you maight as well not even bother with it. Which is exactly what the Big 3 more or less did, and it came back to haunt them. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/54 "2003-09-05T00:58:51Z")
I don’t know how much of the market American car manufacturers have lost in the US, but here (Dominican Rep.) they certainly lost it almost completely. 30 years ago a Japanese car was a rare sight, today I can say the same about American cars. Toyota and Honda are the prefered brand here, not only because their vehicles are attractive, confortable and reliable but because they are less expensive than their american counterparts and require fewer repairs. And to boot it the hold their value much better than American cars. Here buying an American car would make people seriously question your sanity. Even Skoda is selling more than Ford. It would take a miracle for American manufacturers to revert this trend. I know we are nothing but a tiny spot in the world, but I have a feeling we are not the only ones that feel this way about American cars. They look pretty doomed from where I am sitting. ---
**Author:** ![IUHomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@IUHomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IUHomer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863/55 "2003-09-05T05:48:01Z")
Its not tough to figure out why Toyota and Honda sell more cars. Pick up a Consumer Reports sometime and look at the resale value, recommended buys and repair history for American cars vs. foreign (mainly Toyota/Honda). The Big 3 get blown out of the water. They win on cost up front, but that is it. In cost over the life of the car, even over 4 years, Toyota/Honda, in general, is cheaper because of fewer repairs. Its quality and reliability. I don’t think it goes much beyond that. Saturn tried to make up for it with gimicky commercials and a “we’ll kiss your butt and say it smells great” sales and repair department, but even that apparently doesn’t work. ``` I've had a Honda Civic for four years. It gets 30 miles to the gallon. I have never done more that routine repairs and oil changes. I could easily afford a more expensive car and a bigger car, but I just don't see any need for it. Its many I can spend elsewhere and don't need to be pouring into a new car. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-poised-to-be-top-car-seller-in-us-whats-wrong-with-the-big-3/198863.md?page=2)