# Toyota stuck gas pedal - Just take it out of gear!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734 "2010-02-04T23:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/141 "2010-02-23T20:07:33Z")
The engine revolutions have reached the upper limit of the engine’s tolerance - if you look on a rev counter, you’ll see a red section starting somewhere between 5,000 and 8,500 revolutions per minute (depending on the car). That’s the redline - the rev limiter will kick in and briefly shut off the fuel pump if you go more than a few hundred revolutions into that range, in order to prevent the engine from spinning itself into pieces (actually, I think it’s most likely that the crankshaft would just snap, but I’m not sure about that). In any case, shifting gears while redlining the engine is not advisable. The uncontrolled-acceleration problem apparently initiates maximum throttle, which will redline the engine rather quickly. ---
**Author:** ![zwede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ac91a4/32.png) [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/142 "2010-02-24T16:46:15Z")
Small correction: The computer does not shut off the fuel pump to prevent over revving, it (briefly) shuts off the fuel injectors. Likely engine damage from over revving is that the valves float, meaning they try to move so fast the valve springs have insufficient force to shut them. When this happens the valve will still be open when the piston comes up, piston hits valve and carnage ensues. On large displacement engines you can also exceed the maximum piston speed where the inertia of the piston/rod overcomes the strength of the oil film on the rod bearings, leading to spun bearings. Again, carnage ensues. The only way I know of to over rev a modern engine is if you have a manual transmission and manage to get it into a very low gear while going at speed, like shifting into 1st at 70 mph or so. Rare occurrence, but does happen. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/143 "2010-02-24T16:52:52Z")
Apparently, someone went on TV yesterday to give testimony (or some such) claiming that she shifted her runaway Lexus into _every other gear_ (including reverse, which I really seriously don’t believe) with no effect: has there been any actual third-party verification that shifting to neutral does nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/144 "2010-02-24T17:31:59Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Apparently, someone went on TV yesterday to give testimony (or some such) claiming that she shifted her runaway Lexus into _every other gear_ (including reverse, which I really seriously don’t believe) with no effect: has there been any actual third-party verification that shifting to neutral does nothing? I think that what she probably said was that she tried to shift into every other gear, and that it would not shift. Or that’s what actually happened, even if she doesn’t realize it. That’s the problem that has been reported on the toyotas – that the computer won’t recognize the command to shift into neutral when this runaway acceleration is happening. And most cars have interlocks now that prevent you from shifting into reverse or lower gears when you are already traveling over x miles/hour, to prevent damage to the engine. But you should always be able to shift into neutral, with a mechanical shifter. The problem is with the electronic ‘drive-by-wire’ transmission controls. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/145 "2010-02-24T17:40:35Z")
Found a link to [the video](http://consumerist.com/2010/02/video-one-toyota-drivers-horror-story.html), which I can’t watch here at work. Can’t speak for what she actually says, was going by Consumerist’s recap, specifically > [@](#): > > “I put the car into all available gears, including neutral,” she recalled about her fruitless attempt to slow the car down. Ms. Smith says she even put the car into reverse, in which position the gearshift remained as the car quickly reached a speed of 100mph. I just get very :dubious: when I hear claims like “I put it into reverse and was still going 100 mph.” ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/146 "2010-02-26T03:56:19Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Another obvious possibility is to turn the ignition off. You want to avoid locking the steering at the same time (though that would not be nearly as bad as what happened) - but IME you typically can’t do this until the shifter is in Park. I’ve noticed newer cars do not quite behave as older cars when it comes to shifting. My Honda, I am almost certain, will not let you start the car in neutral. However, I swore older cars would - specifically as a safety thing. Have the SDopers noticed this, too? ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/147 "2010-02-26T04:00:23Z")
a) After hearing recent testimony by those who experienced “runaway Toyotas”, I wonder if they were using “cruise control” when this happened. b) I can bet the independent experts are right that the problem is electrical and/or software related. When the truth comes out that Toyota’s fix for floormats or sticky foot pedals wasn’t the answer, the Toyota name will only be found on mudflaps! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/148 "2010-02-26T04:54:42Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Found a link to [the video](http://consumerist.com/2010/02/video-one-toyota-drivers-horror-story.html), which I can’t watch here at work. Can’t speak for what she actually says, was going by Consumerist’s recap, specifically > > I just get very :dubious: when I hear claims like “I put it into reverse and was still going 100 mph.” Modern computer controlled automatic transmissions will not engage reverse above a particular speed, say 3 mph for example. You can move the lever to R at 100 and it will just be in neutral. So assuming you were on level ground and put the car in reverse at 100 you would still be at 100, so the driver’s statement would be true. I can easily see how the engine screaming at redline, the car going faster than you have ever driven might just maybe rattle the driver just a tiny bit. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/149 "2010-02-26T14:47:41Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Found a link to [the video](http://consumerist.com/2010/02/video-one-toyota-drivers-horror-story.html), which I can’t watch here at work. Can’t speak for what she actually says, was going by Consumerist’s recap, specifically > > I just get very :dubious: when I hear claims like “I put it into reverse and was still going 100 mph.” What part of “I moved the shift lever to Reverse and the computer ignored me and left the car in Drive” are you failing to understand? Remember, the shift lever is just a big fancy electrical switch that is connected to a computer. It doesn’t actually connect to the transmission. ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/150 "2010-02-26T19:18:19Z")
I haven’t read every word in this thread so excuse me if I am being redundant. If the throttle pedal and the transmission controls are both ‘fly by wire’ (which they are on a lot of modern cars), and the brakes talk to the cars computer (which I’m sure they do on a Lexus) I can’t believe that someone in Toyota R and D didn’t put a routine into the cars ECU that cuts the throttle if the brakes are being applied and the throttle opening is high. Seems like a no brainer to me. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/151 "2010-02-26T19:22:13Z")
Toyota is [releasing a software fix](http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota-extends-brake-override-154194.aspx) as well. Methinks this might be the REAL fix The software update will cause “the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed” or “would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed.” An interesting comment from [SlashDot.org](http://SlashDot.org) from someone who seems to know what they’re talking about: > [@](#): > > IT is not THE fix. it is a failsafe for THE fix. > The REAL problem is the reading from the toyota ECM when the two redundant APP (accln pedal position) signal circuits are shorted together (main and sub), From the toyota camry VSRM : > DESCRIPTION > This ETCS (Electronic Throttle Control System) does not use a throttle cable. The Accelerator Pedal Position (APP) sensor is mounted on the accelerator pedal bracket and has 2 sensor circuits: VPA (main) and VPA2 (sub). This sensor is a non-contact type, and uses Hall-effect elements, in order to yield accurate signals, even in extreme driving conditions, such as at high speeds as well as very low speeds. The voltage, which is applied to terminals VPA and VPA2 of the ECM, varies between 0 V and 5 V in proportion to the operating angle of the accelerator pedal (throttle valve). A signal from VPA indicates the actual accelerator pedal opening angle (throttle valve opening angle) and is used for engine control. A signal from VPA2 conveys the status of the VPA circuit and is used to check the APP sensor itself. The ECM monitors the actual accelerator pedal opening angle (throttle valve opening angle) through the signals from VPA and VPA2, and controls the throttle actuator according to these signals. > > FAIL-SAFE > The accelerator pedal position sensor has two (main and sub) sensor circuits. If a malfunction occurs in either of the sensor circuits, the ECM detects the abnormal signal voltage difference between the two sensor circuits and switches to limp mode. In limp mode, the functioning circuit is used to calculate the accelerator pedal opening angle to allow the vehicle to continue driving. If both circuits malfunction, the ECM regards the opening angle of the accelerator pedal as being fully closed. In this case, the throttle valve remains closed as if the engine is idling. > If a pass condition is detected and then the ignition switch is turned off, the fail-safe operation stops and the system returns to a normal condition. > > VPA and VPA2 are coming from the PCM with .5-1.1v at one of the sensors and 1.2-2.0v at the other when the pedal is at its relaxed position. When there’s force at the pedal, one sensor will operate between 2.6-4.5v and the other at 3.4-5.0v. > > Toyota specs normal voltage for both the VPA sensors between between .4-4.8v for VPA, and .5-4.8v for VPA2 with a .2v deviation between the 2 sensors. Anything out of those ranges will trigger a DTC > > An internal short could occur within one or more of the paths from the circuits leading to the ecm. That could lead to a situation where the computer cannot detect its own failure.Therefore, when the system gets conflicting information, it arbitrarily ignores half the conflicting information. It does not know which of the circuits are lying or if they both are lying and shorted together. different resistance values will lead to arbitrary acceleration. Having the brake override it is a stopgap, but ixing the real problem (perhaps with a third circuit in voting mode which will require replacing the entire circuit path) is the REAL FIX. I suspect 2012 and onwards toyotas would have a third path and faraday cage/denso replacement for the magnet assembly in the plastic accelerator pedal (which is another problem with EMI which might lead to acceleration) which i am not going to go into here. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/152 "2010-02-26T23:15:07Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You put a Prius in park by pushing a button, not by moving the stick, which I’m still getting used to. About one time in 20, my Prius will ignore my first press of the park button. It’s kinda disturbing when you go to get out of the car and it starts moving:eek: The first few times, I thought I was absent minded and forgot or something but it has happened a few times when I am totally paying attention. I’m guessing it has some kind of sensor to not allow it to go into park while the car is moving and that the sensor is mis-calibrated. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/153 "2010-03-01T06:54:37Z")
I just did a little experiment with trying to put the Prius in neutral at various speeds. Turns out that a quick flick into neutral will not do it. You have to hold it there for like half a second. I wonder if the out of control people tried flicking it into neutral and gave up when it did not work the first couple of times? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/154 "2010-03-01T16:35:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You find _that_ confusing? I hope for your sake you never drive a Jaguar. No worries. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/155 "2010-03-01T17:41:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You find _that_ confusing? I hope for your sake you never drive a Jaguar. By the way, I really hope Toyota’s lawyers try that line of argument with a jury. That should be fun: “It’s not confusing at all! Haven’t any of you people ever driven a _Jaguar_??” 😛 And is there any reason, other than pretentiousness, for making a gear shift for an automatic transmission so confusing? Wouldn’t [this](http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/gear_shift.jpg) do? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/156 "2010-03-01T18:22:29Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > By the way, I really hope Toyota’s lawyers try that line of argument with a jury. That should be fun: > > “It’s not confusing at all! Haven’t any of you people ever driven a _Jaguar_??” 😛 > > And is there any reason, other than pretentiousness, for making a gear shift for an automatic transmission so confusing? Wouldn’t [this](http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/gear_shift.jpg) do? I actually prefer the staggered automatic gates to the push-button one (although my daily driver is a manual). It’s really not that confusing–the shift lever jumps into place very naturally and it just feels nicer than the push-button automatic (at least to me.) ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/157 "2010-03-01T19:11:12Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > You have to hold it there for like half a second. Why hold it? Does it try to go back into drive? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/158 "2010-03-01T19:14:41Z")
Probably it never leaves drive in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/159 "2010-03-01T19:50:39Z")
I would imagine that the “hold it for a second” is there as a safeguard against accidentally bumping the shifter and knocking the car out of gear. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734/160 "2010-03-02T16:35:50Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Why hold it? Does it try to go back into drive? [See this pic](http://cars.about.com/od/toyota/ig/2007-Toyota-Prius-Touring-pics/2007-Toyota-Prius-shifter.htm) The stick just sits at the position marked by the circle. To change state (to D or to B whatever), you kind of nudge the stick and let it spring back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toyota-stuck-gas-pedal-just-take-it-out-of-gear/527734.md?page=9)