Say WHAT? With the engine off, nothing is powering the hydraulic systems that operate the steering assist and brake assist systems, so yes, you do indeed lose those systems even in a manua/standard shift car.
Yeah, but that’s what I’m saying: I can’t imagine how to make it financially feasible, but it should be included in the state’s licensing process. For example you apply for a driver’s license and pay your application fee, and the process includes not just a written test, and in-car test, but also X number of classroom instruction hours in a state-run program that meets a minimum criteria for safety (that you can opt out of if you take a more comprehensive in-depth accredited driver’s ed course or a high school course). Just to cover key, bare-bones theory for not wrapping yourself around a tree.
I just can’t imagine any way of funding such a thing. And it would be a logistic nightmare. Like can you imagine the disaster it would be if the DMV was in charge of something like that?
In any case, I vaguely remember that the written test I had to take was all about basic traffic laws and and knowing what street signs meant. It should include more about safety, like “what are the steps to take if your brakes fail?” and “what are the steps for escaping a car that is sinking in water?”
I agree this is a bad idea. Suppose you get nailed, even lightly, from behind and then, what? Since you’re in neutral, you get pushed out into traffic (at least much more easily than if you’re on the brakes.) Not a good place to be in.
With the clutch not depressed and the car in motion, the momentum of the car is turning the engine and thus the power steering pump. The turning (though not running) engine may still also generate enough vacuum for the power brakes.
That’s why you put it in neutral and apply the brakes.
I was taught not to be in neutral while waiting at lights so that you are in a better position to floor it and take evasive action in an emergency.
Exactly.
With the ignition off, no modern car will run for more than a half second or so without some sort of major problems. The compression from the combustion chamber alone is enough to slow it very quickly.
Edited: I see now you are talking about a car in motion, as opposed to one attempting acceleration from a stoplight, etc. This is a somewhat idfferent situation, but I don’t think it generates enough vacuum this way to reliably run the accessories.
The Consumer Reports blog is reporting Toyota is about to recall 270,000 Prius’ for brake problems. Also on the chopping block is the Lexus HS250h hybrid.
How much time and money should we be spending on teaching new drivers to deal with an extremely improbable situation? In a fixed-term class like high school driver’s ed, the time you spend teaching this is time you spend not teaching something else. The test you take for a driver’s license is finite, so including this means something else gets taken off or emphasized less. Even if you add questions, that means that other things contribute less relative to the overall score.
But adding safety questions means that there is less emphasis on basic traffic laws and what street signs mean. Do you want people to be able to pass a driver’s test with perfect knowledge of what to do in an improbable emergency, but not know as much about basic traffic laws and street signs? I don’t know that that would be such a good tradeoff.
This is why I prefer a manual transmission as well. Any time something goes amiss I can jam down on the clutch pedal and that means there is NO communication between the engine and the wheels. NONE. Even if, for some reason, the gear shift has gotten jammed into place and I can’t get neutral, the clutch does that for me. There’s another advantage, in that say the clutch linkage becomes undone at the exact same time the gear shift gets stuck (so vanishingly unlikely I’d be looking for the meteor that’s gonna complete the trifecta) braking the car will likely cause it to stall out anyway–which is something auto trannies won’t do. Intentional stalls can be your friend.
I don’t trust a piece of machinery to decide for me what I should/want to do–this is why I am the operator, not the car itself. Cars can’t be made to understand why THIS time it’s quite important to be in neutral even if I am going 80mph. I know why, and I refuse to have a car that’s going to fucking ARGUE with me when I’m the one who’s gonna die if things don’t straighten up right quick. Fuck that fancy shit, I want something that works and is UNDER MY DIRECT CONTROL.
I don’t think it takes more than 5, 10 minutes or so. I remember it very clearly from driver’s ed–it was emphasized in the classroom, and on the road. My driver’s ed instructor–both classroom and road instructors–made it clear to us what to do in stuck accelerator situations and failed brake situations. It’s in the same batch of lessons as how to steer into skids, how and when to pump or not pump your brakes, what to do if you drive through water and temporarily lose braking, what to do in the event of a catastrophic tire blowout at highway speeds, etc. I don’t think there’s anything unreasonable about knowing how to take your car out of gear should you have to. I mean, seriously, this is (or at least was) basic information.
Do you really think that adding 10 minutes of instruction actually diminishes the rest of what you’ve learned? I learned CPR in swimming class, but it’s almost as unlikely that I’ll ever need to use it. The slapping into neutral emergency technique on the other hand, I’ve used twice since moving to Canada (ice storms = crap road conditions).
Agreed, loss of assist will not change the maximum possible braking effort - just the brake-effort-versus-pedal-effort relationship. I still maintain that without vacuum assist, it will be difficult or impossible for the average driver to press the pedal hard enough to achieve that maximum possible braking effort.
The brakes will be sized so that on a road surface with good traction, they are capable of locking up the wheels with vacuum assist and a particular level of driver effort on the pedal. This will be a function mostly of vehicle weight; engine power/torque won’t enter into it.
If you’ve got a car with a V6 and 200+ horsepower, I’d suggest an experiment:
Find an empty parking lot. With left foot hard on brake, trans in drive, stomp on the gas. Are you able to keep the car from moving?
Now find the vacuum line that connects to the brake boost. Remove that vacuum line from the brake boost (plug the line so you don’t get a leak going back to the manifold, and plug the fitting on the boost so you don’t get crud in there). With your left foot hard on the brake (which now has no vacuum assist), Put the car in drive and stomp on the gas. Are you able to keep the car from moving?
(I’d test this on my Maxima, but it’s a manual trans; some folks are talented enough to work all three pedals with two feet, but I’m not one of them.)
This sounds good in theory and I support it in theory.
However, if there is one thing we know about human behavior it’s that textbook lessons from years past are not remembered when the time comes to apply them. This applies to every aspect of human behavior from being told how to work a copy machine to remembering a PIN number to reactions in emergencies. If you don’t get repeated training in realistic simulations on a regular basis you will not remember the one-time lesson in a timely fashion. This is especially true when it is an emergency situation.
That’s why I mentioned that people who are in much higher likelihood of needing to react in emergency situations are given mandatory ongoing training. Without that, even highly trained people forget what to do, or at least can’t bring that information to bear when badly needed.
One reason for that is that there are so many potential emergencies. Any trained driving instructor can probably think of a hundred needs-to-know that a population of 300,000,000 drivers would certainly face, but any individual driver would almost never have to. A second and hugely important reason is that advice changes over time. When I grew up everybody was taught to steer into a skid. Everybody also had rear-wheel-drive cars with no computer controls. Today that advice varies with the kind of car you drive. Please don’t tell me that if you are driving a rental car you will first read through the manual and absorb every possible variation in that model that might affect your behavior in an emergency situation. Even the handful of compulsive paranoids who do this couldn’t possibly remember all the information and recall it instantly in an emergency. Live-saving maneuvers that change whenever you move from one car to another are not basic, cannot be taught in a few minutes, and have no expectation of being known at any given moment.
There is no reasonable preparation people can make for once-in-a-lifetime emergencies. You certainly can hope to give people basic safety instructions, calculate which types of emergencies are most common, and suggest that they get training and retraining while taking precautions. Realistically, though, there are zillions of possible emergencies and limited time in anyone’s life. You have to be good and lucky.
The death was caused by panic and nothing else, bare in mind this man was not by himself and had screaming people yelling and was worried for his life. Of course you can put it in to N or even though it into first, one of the reasons I own a 5 speed is i that I will be the one to decide when to shift not the car.
I have taken a defensive driving course before and can tell you that panic does not over come everyone. I once had to preform an emergency maneuver to avoid crashing into a river. That maneuver eneded up being a bootleg turn, yes my car stalled and it was my fault for putting myself in that situation but i can tell you from that experience that the urge to “omg im about to die slam on the breaks” is a very big urge that is hard to overcome
Me too. It is very nice to not have to fumble with my keys in the rain, which has been the case 80% of the time since I bought it. (And yes I’ll be heading back for a fix.)
I had one case of stuck accelerator, on my old Datsun 210. It wasn’t on an interstate, it was on a winding country road just north of Princeton. I did think to put it in neutral, and was able to brake and stop without coming anywhere close to hitting anything - though it didn’t quite have the engine of a Lexus. It was old and corroded, and I got rid of it right afterwards.
I’ve never driven a manual, but I used to go to old style car-washes which pulled you through, and where your car had to be in neutral. It just doesn’t seem that complicated.
Oh yeah BTW anyone who does not know that N takes the car out of gear should not be allowed to drive one
I’m not sure from the way you’ve phrased it whether you meant that this shifting ability is unique to Toyotas or that the technique described would work on all cars. I can tell you that my 2001 Mercury Sable will not allow me to shift into neutral unless I press the button.
I don’t disagree with you in practice, either. It’s just that, for me, disengaging the engine is one of those things I need to know, no matter what kind of car I’m driving. It may be a personal quirk, but I think it’s a fundamental mechanical understanding of the vehicle. While I’ve never had a runaway engine, I, like others in this thread, have used the “knock the shift to neutral” to control an aspect of our driving when we needed to disengage the engine for one reason or another (for me, it was a maneuver to help me get traction). Once again, I just think it’s a fundamental understanding of how the car works.