# Tracks that mess up good albums **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 9, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676 "2012-07-09T06:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/121 "2012-07-14T20:45:08Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > The Beach Boys’ Al Jardine, who was a keen folk music fan, suggested to Brian Wilson that the Beach Boys should do a cover version of “Sloop John B.” As Jardine explains: > > “Brian was at the piano. I asked him if I could sit down and show him something. I laid out the chord pattern for ‘Sloop John B.’ I said, ‘Remember this song?’ I played it. He said, ‘I’m not a big fan of the Kingston Trio.’ He wasn’t into folk music. But I didn’t give up on the idea. So what I did was to sit down and play it for him in the Beach Boys idiom. I figured if I gave it to him in the right light, he might end up believing in it. So I modified the chord changes so it would be a little more interesting. The original song is basically a three-chord song, and I knew that wouldn’t fly. So I put some minor changes in there, and it stretched out the possibilities from a vocal point of view. Anyway, I played it, walked away from the piano and we went back to work. The very next day, I got a phone call to come down to the studio. Brian played the song for me, and I was blown away. The idea stage to the completed track took less than 24 hours.”[4] > Choosing the lead vocalist > > Al Jardine then explains that Brian "then lined us up one at a time to try out for the lead vocal. I had naturally assumed I would sing the lead, since I had brought in the arrangement. It was like interviewing for a job. Pretty funny. He didn’t like any of us. My vocal had a much more mellow approach because I was bringing it from the folk idiom. For the radio, we needed a more rock approach. Brian and Mike ended up singing it… > > – from Wikipedia > > (I’ll change my “most fans…” comment to “some fans…”) > > (As for the "most This is an interesting story. However if it is meant to back up your assertion that Sloop John B was “sort of tacked on, I think at the suggestion (or even insistence) of one member of the group” I strongly disagree. If anything this story makes me think that Brian Wilson saw something special in it. And the finished track could easily have been discarded if he didn’t think it fit in his masterpiece. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/122 "2012-07-14T21:51:40Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > This is an interesting story. However if it is meant to back up your assertion that Sloop John B was “sort of tacked on, I think at the suggestion (or even insistence) of one member of the group” I strongly disagree. If anything this story makes me think that Brian Wilson saw something special in it. And the finished track could easily have been discarded if he didn’t think it fit in his masterpiece. That is certainly one valid way of considering the matter. I certainly don’t think it “messes up” _Pet Sounds_. (For me, personally, the only song I usually skip is **Caroline, No.** ) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/123 "2012-07-14T23:04:26Z")
> [@Quint](#): > > This is an interesting story. However if it is meant to back up your assertion that Sloop John B was “sort of tacked on, I think at the suggestion (or even insistence) of one member of the group” I strongly disagree. If anything this story makes me think that Brian Wilson saw something special in it. And the finished track could easily have been discarded if he didn’t think it fit in his masterpiece. One last comment- SJB was the first pop/rock song I ever heard that had what amounts to “lead bass.” First one I ever noticed, anyway. Final One last comment, re another post: IMO “Caroline, No” works much better at its original speed and pitch. Possibly at his father’s urging, Brian slowed it down to drop the pitch a semitone. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/124 "2012-07-14T23:29:03Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Final One last comment, re another post: IMO “Caroline, No” works much better at its original speed and pitch. Possibly at his father’s urging, Brian slowed it down to drop the pitch a semitone. Interesting! Yes, it is a bit slower than it “should” be – I can see how speeding it up a bit might help. (The amazingly slow “DT (PYHOMS)” is perfect just as it is, of course. Perhaps the slowest great song ever.) ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/125 "2012-07-14T23:37:17Z")
Travelling Without Moving by Jamiroquai is a fucking great funk album, fast, witty, bouncy, flowing and fun, but those back-to-back turgid stinkers of instrumental didgeridoo tracks on Side Two almost kill it in its tracks. Skipping them is mandatory. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/126 "2012-07-14T23:42:26Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Later Beatles albums—you know, when they started to suck— Yeah, like that last piece of crap they recorded, _Abbey Road_. In order of release (not counting _Yellow Submarine_, released as a companion piece to the movie, with very little new original Beatles stuff on it), their final 3 albums were _The White Album_, _Abbey Road_, and _Let It Be_. The 3 prior to those were _Revolver_, _Sgt Pepper_, and _Magical Mystery Tour_. 5 of these 6 were on Rolling Stone’s list of the 500 greatest albums of all time. including their final 3 albums released. 4 of these were in the top 15 (2 in the top 5, including the top spot; the top 5 also included _Rubber Soul_). Where exactly was the point where their albums started to suck? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/127 "2012-07-14T23:59:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Where exactly was the point where their albums started to suck? I always think of The White Album as coming _after_ Abbey Road, because I envisioned their career arc as having all of their “progressive” sounding albums lumped together, toward the beginning they were of course a straightforward rock n roll band, and at the end I thought they were all like “screw all this hippie crap, let’s just make the music we enjoy and let’s go back to our roots and throw in some rock n roll” Of course, the fact that Abbey Road is much less like this than Let It Be and The White Album, yet was recorded afterward, disproves this analysis. But let’s pretend that my fake timeline were true. Then, I’d say that The White Album is when they began to suck. Relative to their post-Help! stuff, that is. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/128 "2012-07-15T01:36:12Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > IMO “Caroline, No” works much better at its original speed and pitch. Possibly at his father’s urging, Brian slowed it down to drop the pitch a semitone. People, getting old is a bitch. My Senior Moment for today was a doozy. What I meant to say is that Murry urged Brian to speed CN up, to raise the pitch a semitone, to make Brian sound “younger.” What I neglected to add was that I prefer to hear it at its original lower pitch, but at the faster (as released) tempo. Christ, I’m not even 62 yet, and these idiotic mistakes/oversights are happening almost daily. . ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/129 "2012-07-15T02:25:55Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Where exactly was the point where their albums started to suck? “Free as a Bird” was a bit lame. So, what was that, 1997 or so? ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/130 "2012-07-15T05:26:55Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > That is certainly one valid way of considering the matter. I certainly don’t think it “messes up” _Pet Sounds_. (For me, personally, the only song I usually skip is **Caroline, No.** ) High fives all around then. For me the only change to Pet Sounds I would make would be to stick with “Hang On To Your Ego” instead of “I Know There’s An Answer”. And thus… /end hijack ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/131 "2012-07-15T06:40:19Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > John Mellencamp’s 1987 release \*The Lonesome Jubilee \* is a rather haunting slice of blue-collar Midwestern life. Some of the tracks have a socio-political bent, others are simple tales of small-town disenchantment, and they all combine into a powerful and thought-provoking whole. > > Until you get to “Hotdogs and Hamburgers,” a clumsy, obvious screed about the white man’s treatment of Native Americans that actually borders on reverse racism. It’s the second-last track on the album, so if you’ve listened to the whole thing all the way through, this turd manages to tear apart the rich tapestry that’s been woven up to that point. It’s a shame. I rather like “Hotdogs and Hamburgers.” I don’t think it breaks up the flow of the album at all. > [@etv78](#): > > “Leave a Tender Moment Alone” from _An Innocent Man_ I strongly disagree with this. I think “Leave A Tender Moment” is one of the best cuts of the album. You could leave off “Easy Money” and “This Night” and you would have one solid album. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/132 "2012-07-15T06:59:18Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > “Let Me Take You Home Tonight” was the track I always skipped on **Boston**. I don’t think there are any songs on any of Boston’s first three albums that ruin the flow of any of them. You can play those three allbums from start to finish and make one awesome playlist. I couldn’t think of their first album at all without “Let Me Take You Home Tonight.” ---
**Author:** ![Ritter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ritter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ritter)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/133 "2012-07-15T07:08:11Z")
‘Oh Daddy’ from Fleetwood Mac’s _Rumors_. If I heard it for the first time today, I might like it. Problem is, I was listening to that album while still in the womb and can’t hear it objectively. Is ‘Daddy’ her father or her boyfriend? She calls him ‘baby’ in the last verse. It is a bit of a cringey, squirmy song for me. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/134 "2012-07-15T10:31:53Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But let’s pretend that my fake timeline were true. Then, I’d say that The White Album is when they began to suck. Relative to their post-Help! stuff, that is. Okay, I’ll play along. Seriously, the _White Album_ sucked? Perhaps less “progressive” than, say, _Revolver_, but…well, maybe it’s just different strokes. I consider the _White Album_ a masterwork, flaws and all. FWIW, my opinion is common in critical circles. Hell, even Charlie Manson was enamored by it. 😃 Anyway, in your alternate universe timeline, why did the Beatles suck starting with the _White Album_? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/135 "2012-07-15T10:35:53Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > “Free as a Bird” was a bit lame. > > So, what was that, 1997 or so? That wasn’t an album, the Beatles having disbanded 25 years before its release, by 1995 with one of its members dead and all. But I’ll concede the point: by 1995, the Beatles output of current band material was much weaker than prior to 1970. Every year since has been even worse. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/136 "2012-07-15T11:15:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That wasn’t an album, the Beatles having disbanded 25 years before its release, by 1995 with one of its members dead and all. But I’ll concede the point: by 1995, the Beatles output of current band material was much weaker than prior to 1970. Every year since has been even worse. 😉 Exactly my point ;). Actually, the recording session which “immediately preceded” Free as a Bird’s – to polish George’s weak waltz-time number “I Me Mine”, in Feb 1970, I believe, and also absent John, though he was still on this planet – was also pretty lame. So, you could say the Beatles began to suck on _that_ day. But not a second earlier than that! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/137 "2012-07-15T12:26:38Z")
Oh no, I love “I Me Mine”! Cool chords, and I especially love Paul’s harmony on the chorus–that Beatles sound, the pure, high tenor. It is funny to think of them as consecutive recording sessions, though, you’re right… ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/138 "2012-07-15T12:29:58Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Oh no, I love “I Me Mine”! Cool chords, and I especially love Paul’s harmony on the chorus–that Beatles sound, the pure, high tenor. It is funny to think of them as consecutive recording sessions, though, you’re right… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/139 "2012-07-17T07:07:00Z")
One more – For me, “Dreams” is the song I skip on Fleetwood Mac’s _Rumours_…partly because it’s boring, but mainly because of the atrocious way they try to fit in the lyric “when the rain washes you clean, you’ll know”. The rhythm of the song forces them to completely mis-stress the syllables – “…wa-SHEZ youclean…” rather than “…WASH-ez you CLEAN…” – rendering it completely unintelligible. (Someone mentioned “Oh Daddy”, and that’s not a great song either, but it doesn’t make me cringe the way “Dreams” does.) ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676/140 "2012-07-17T23:05:20Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > One more – For me, “Dreams” is the song I skip on Fleetwood Mac’s _Rumours_…partly because it’s boring, but mainly because of the atrocious way they try to fit in the lyric “when the rain washes you clean, you’ll know”. The rhythm of the song forces them to completely mis-stress the syllables – “…wa-SHEZ youclean…” rather than “…WASH-ez you CLEAN…” – rendering it completely unintelligible. I’ll be damned. For exactly that reason I never knew what the hell that lyric was supposed to be. I always figured it was something that fit the meter but could never come up with anything that makes sense: “When the rain wall shares you clean you’ll kno-o-ow, you will kno-ow…” I have the same issue with the line with “Serengeti” in Africa by Toto, but that would be a hijack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tracks-that-mess-up-good-albums/627676.md?page=8)