# Traffic Tickets vs. Criminal Charges **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 8, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756 "2015-12-08T00:31:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/21 "2015-12-08T10:17:43Z")
In the UK most (nearly all) driving offences are dealt with by post. When that brown envelope drops on your mat with a NIP (Notice of Intending Prosecution) in it, you can elect to have your day (more likely ten minutes) in court, but you have to weigh up the consequences. The penalty is, in most cases, a £100 fine and 3 points (12 points = obligatory appearance in court and a likely ban). If you elect to take your chance with a magistrate and lose (which is highly likely unless you have a really hot-shot lawyer) you will get the same fine and points plus costs. You will also have to take a day off work. Most people pay up, even if they think that they were not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/22 "2015-12-08T14:31:53Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I doubt it, because in most jurisdictions traffic offenses are not crimes. At least in Michigan, they’re “civil infractions.” The principles of law we hold here (innocent until proven guilty, judged by a jury of one’s peers, etc.) are for criminal trials. In general, for a civil proceeding like this, the defendant is indeed considered innocent until proven guilty – or, as a lawyer would put it, the burden of proof is on the state. If there’s no evidence at all (e.g. cop doesn’t show up in court), no fine. BUT, the state doesn’t need to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, they just need to have the preponderance of evidence on their side – as a non-lawyer would but it, the state only needs to show that it’s more likely than not that the defendant did it. Now in practice, a traffic court judge probably wants a little better than a 51% chance, but they’re never going to want the same level of proof that a murder conviction would need. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/23 "2015-12-08T14:52:25Z")
It will vary by state. Here in RI a number of ticketable offenses require the state to prove their case by a standard of \*clear and convincing \*evidence, something between a \*preponderance \*of evidence and _proof beyond a reasonable doubt_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/24 "2015-12-08T15:17:06Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > I’ve wasted too much of my life on these forums. I think I’ve told the truth here, and I don’t see how it can be a “political” statement if i’m not agitating for any particular party, candidate, or anything really… Do what you have to do, but I didn’t break the rules as I see it, so either make up the rules or explain yourself. **Moderator Note** “Political” isn’t the same as “partisan.” I’ve explained to you before at considerable length that we don’t want to see inflammatory remarks in General Questions, since they tend to derail threads. If you want to discuss what you perceive to be the failings of the justice system, take it Great Debates. You have an unfortunate habit of jumping into almost any thread relating to the police or legal procedures with rants about the justice system that are better suited to GD than GQ. I am instructing you to refrain from this in the future. Failure to comply with this could bring your continued posting privileges under discussion. If you have further complaints about moderation, take it to ATMB. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/25 "2015-12-08T15:17:21Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > You’ll also notice that a lot of speeding tickets, particularly on highways, are written based on radar. Which is pretty unimpeachable as to accuracy. They’ve switched to that over the years precisely because they were losing cases wherein drivers were able to cast enough doubt on the quality of the police’s speed determinations. My experience is the exact opposite. If radar is mentioned at all, it is only to establish probable cause to believe you were speeding. The evidence of speed given will be the officer testifying that he matched speed with your vehicle and read the speed off his speedometer. And then he will produce written proof that his speedometer was calibrated right before his shift. I heard decades ago (before I lived in Virginia) that the Virginia Supreme Court had rule that radar was not sufficiently accurate at measuring speed to be admissible in court, but I cannot confirm that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/26 "2015-12-08T16:12:12Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > One of my favorite stories from childhood is a classmate’s mother beating a speeding ticket by arguing that her old, overloaded Volkswagon Beetle couldn’t possibly have accelerated quickly enough to reach the speed the cop said she was going when he stopped her. I pled not guilty to a VASCAR speeding ticket. My evidence consisted of a time-stamped mini-mart receipt I got minutes before the ticket and my testimony that I repeatedly attempted leaving the mini-mart parking lot and reaching the speed the officer said I was doing without being able to in my old Toyota Tercel. The magistrate lectured me about speeding through his town, called me a liar, and found me guilty. After the trial the cop approached me and apologized. She suspected some sort of calibration error and believed my testimony. She even said if I wanted to pursue the issue further she would not show up for trial so I would be assured a win. But I couldn’t afford another day off of work, so I paid the ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/27 "2015-12-08T16:57:15Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I pled not guilty to a VASCAR speeding ticket. My evidence consisted of a time-stamped mini-mart receipt I got minutes before the ticket and my testimony that I repeatedly attempted leaving the mini-mart parking lot and reaching the speed the officer said I was doing without being able to in my old Toyota Tercel. > > The magistrate lectured me about speeding through his town, called me a liar, and found me guilty. > > After the trial the cop approached me and apologized. She suspected some sort of calibration error and believed my testimony. She even said if I wanted to pursue the issue further she would not show up for trial so I would be assured a win. But I couldn’t afford another day off of work, so I paid the ticket. Shame she didn’t mention this during the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/28 "2015-12-08T17:10:04Z")
In the olden days, before the higher tech, I read that constables in British forces would hide in the bushes at one end of a stretch of road with others positioned along the way and later they’d compare their stop-watch times. Probably not along the M1. American state laws of the vintage car era were even more hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/29 "2015-12-08T17:45:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Shame she didn’t mention this during the trial. The magistrate asked her what happened on that date. She stated the specifics (I was in my unit at 4562 Blah Blvd operating VASCAR unit 543c etc). Magistrate looked at me and asked why he shouldn’t believe the officer. I told my version. He reprimanded me, found me guilty, and said “Next!”. I have since heard that since Magistrates are elected, they find natives innocent and out of towners guilty when they can. tangential aside: I represented myself in a civil suit and immediately recognized the magistrate when I walked into court. I am good friends with his ex-wife and consider him a friend as well. I assumed he’d recuse himself, based on our relationship, but he did not. I won the case (would have anyway) but I really wondered about it ---
**Author:** ![race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/race_to_the_bottom)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/30 "2015-12-08T19:57:52Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > There isn’t any. Most of the time, the cop saying you did it is all it takes. The police are supposed to present a reading from a sensor but they don’t [have to](http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/03/police-can-give-speeding-tickets-if-they-think-a-car-is-speeding/). What you’re talking about is the least of the problems. The state can take away your freedom for years, decades, even take your life, and the prosecutors have a direct incentive to fake, tamper with, suppress evidence, or just trick a jury into voting with their emotions. Prosecutors are popularly elected and are far more likely to be reelected if they slam accused criminals with long prison sentences, as many of them as possible, and the public will not believe those criminals if they say they were innocent (even if they turn out to be innocent years later). Yes, the system is hopelessly corrupt. Judges and prosecutors elected by appealing to people’s baser instincts. If the cops pull you over, they can legally seize any assets you may have if they claim that they are somehow connected to criminal action. They can keep this money even though you are never convicted of a crime or even charged with a crime. It is hell to try to get it back. Canadians are warned not to bring significant amounts of cash to the US. > **[ZeroHedge](https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-24/canada-warns-its-citizens-not-take-cash-usa)** > > ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/31 "2015-12-08T20:27:33Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > In the UK most (nearly all) driving offences are dealt with by post. When that brown envelope drops on your mat with a NIP (Notice of Intending Prosecution) in it, you can elect to have your day (more likely ten minutes) in court, but you have to weigh up the consequences. > > The penalty is, in most cases, a £100 fine and 3 points (12 points = obligatory appearance in court and a likely ban). If you elect to take your chance with a magistrate and lose (which is highly likely unless you have a really hot-shot lawyer) you will get the same fine and points plus costs. You will also have to take a day off work. Most people pay up, even if they think that they were not guilty. Allowing for the vast array of local variations in the US, the story is broadly the same here. You \*can \*fight it, but the deck is stacked against you versus the value of what you _might_ gain and what you will \*certainly \*give up. Most of us, at least once we’ve grown up a bit, just accept our occasional citation as a cost of doing business as a driver. Even if I wasn’t guilty of exactly what they wrote up, I was guilty of something similar this week. Much less last week and the week before. So most of us grumble then mail in a check. I’m far from alone in calling it my “fast driving tax.” To be sure there are corrupt jurisdictions and if you happen to live in or near one the balance shifts. The solution there is not to fight individual tickets, but to tackle the systemic corruption through the media and higher levels of government. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/32 "2015-12-08T20:45:17Z")
The police officer is an officer of the court, and, unless you are also an officer of the court, his or her testimony weighs more than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/33 "2015-12-08T20:47:09Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The police officer is an officer of the court, and, unless you are also an officer of the court, his or her testimony weighs more than yours. That’s up to the trier of fact. (judge or jury). A police officer’s testimony is not automatically afforded any greater weight than any other witness. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/34 "2015-12-08T21:31:26Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The police officer is an officer of the court, and, unless you are also an officer of the court, his or her testimony weighs more than yours. Damn donuts. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/35 "2015-12-08T22:04:43Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s up to the trier of fact. (judge or jury). A police officer’s testimony is not automatically afforded any greater weight than any other witness. Although in the last \*voire dire \*I sat the prosecution asked this question of every potential juror: “Do you agree that police testimony is more reliable than that of the defendant?” It’s pretty damn obvious what the prosecution thought was the right answer. I was rather surprised the judge allowed such a blatantly leading (and loaded) question. In the end the case turned out to be a wrongful prosecution & we walked the defendant. The prosecution did not cover itself in either righteousness nor in glory that day. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/36 "2015-12-08T22:12:35Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s up to the trier of fact. (judge or jury). A police officer’s testimony is not automatically afforded any greater weight than any other witness. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Oh wait you’re serious?! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/37 "2015-12-08T22:27:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. > > Oh wait you’re serious?! **Moderator Note** Let’s refrain from snarky responses in GQ. No warning issued. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/38 "2015-12-08T22:32:29Z")
> [@\*\*Saint Cad\*\*](#): > > Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. > > Oh wait you’re serious?! The post in question made it sound like it was official policy to give more weight to police officers. It isn’t. I would agree, however, most judges and jurors would tend to do so. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by\*\* barbitu8 \*\* > The police officer is an officer of the court, and, unless you are also an officer of the court, his or her testimony weighs more than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/39 "2015-12-08T23:02:12Z")
Another point of data to answer the OP question. In NJ you are not allowed to ask for a jury trial for a traffic infraction. To answer the OP they are often treated differently than criminal matters. How different they are treated varies from state to state. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756/40 "2015-12-08T23:11:38Z")
Here are some suggestions based on personal experience (They are not really worth it - unless the stakes are very high or you have a lot of time and money on hand and I am not a lawyer) : 1\> Always request a jury trial (if allowed): It is more likely that the prosecutor will drop the charges or propose a lesser fine than go through the costs and hassle of a jury trial. 2\> Subpoena the Officer’s personnel records (if permitted) : Since its you versus the officer, you should try and look if the officer has complaints of profiling people based on age , race , etc. - basically you examine the officer’s credibility. 3\> Appeal the judgement of the court : Its a time buying tactic : You should do this if you are going to lose your licence based on certain points in year. Depending on your jurisdiction it may go to a appellate court - which invariably will agree with the ruling but it will buy you time and probably put you in the next year with the points not accumulating. In some jurisdictions, the appeals goes to a different court which is usually so overwhelmed that they will dismiss the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traffic-tickets-vs-criminal-charges/739756.md?page=3)