# Tragedy in The Hague (man pushed onto incoming tram) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 20, 2021, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815 "2021-10-20T12:36:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/1 "2021-10-20T12:36:40Z")
The other night there was a terrible event in my neighborhood, here in The Hague. At a tram stop, three youths pushed a man in front of an incoming tram. The three perpetrators ran away; ambulance arrived very quickly but nothing could be done for the poor victim. Police started a sweep (apparently with K-9 units as well), and the tram driver and other witnesses to the crime are as I speak receiving psychological help. This morning the police had all three suspects in custody - apparently they gave themselves up. Two boys of 15, one of 18. Right now they are in preventive jail, and are not allowed to communicate with anybody apart from their lawyers. The victim was a homeless man, apparently around 40 years old. It took time for the police to track down who he was, as he had no ID on him. There is no more information available about this; the police is keeping everything under wraps until they have finished their investigation. This is truly pathetic, in every possible meaning of the word. You hear about this kind of stuff, but it always has a whiff of urban legend. Heck - many years ago, when I went to visit New York, my mother, very concerned, told me: “Be careful! They push people into the subway rails over there!” Terrible tragedy all around - for the victim, of course; for his family; for those who were left traumatized after witnessing that act; for the families of the young people responsible; for the young people themselves. Very very very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/2 "2021-10-20T12:40:36Z")
They need to bring back stale bread and murky water dungeons for people like that. 😡 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/3 "2021-10-20T12:45:43Z")
In the US, their defense would be that their friends led them to make bad choices in life, that they are the real victims here and we should feel sorry for them. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/4 "2021-10-20T12:55:03Z")
I doubt that your depiction is acccurate but it is true that one should feel sorry for them too. They have loaded guilt upon themselves that will haunt them the rest of their ruined lives. And I feel sorry for all the others involved: the dead, bereaved and/or traumatized, as the OP as written. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/5 "2021-10-20T13:00:48Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > In the US, their defense would be that their friends led them to make bad choices in life, that they are the real victims here and we should feel sorry for them. Well, _something_ caused them to make bad choices in life. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/6 "2021-10-20T13:11:24Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I doubt that your depiction is acccurate but it is true that one should feel sorry for them too. They have loaded guilt upon themselves that will haunt them the rest of their ruined lives. I disagree that one **should** feel sorry for them. They feel guilty? They are haunted? Their lives are ruined? Boo fuckin’ hoo. Maybe don’t murder someone. It’s not that hard to **not** murder someone. > [@Procrustus](#): > > Well, _something_ caused them to make bad choices in life. Yes, and that something makes it not their fault (according to their American defense council if it happened in the US). ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/7 "2021-10-20T13:16:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Yes, and that something makes it not their fault (according to their American defense council if it happened in the US). That’s the job of defense counsel. I don’t see a controversy here. And, btw, it seldom is very effective. Nonetheless, it’s good to explore how such conduct comes about. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/8 "2021-10-20T13:22:20Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s the job of defense counsel. I don’t see a controversy here. I don’t think it is controversial either. I was just pointing out that the standard defense in the US is “It’s someone else’s fault I did what I did.” I see this so-called reasoning with people in real-life too. I believe it is a reflection of American culture. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/9 "2021-10-20T13:35:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I believe it is a reflection of American culture. Trying to understand criminal behavior is probably a good thing ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/10 "2021-10-20T13:45:48Z")
As a defense counsel, what is your argument against a charge of Depraved Heart murder? Admittedly, I’d starve to death as a lawyer sooner than my clients would go to the gurney, but I’d point out the definition “extreme indifference to the _value_ of human life” Since the victims of diminished-capacity murderers are often sex-workers, throwaway street kids, ethnic and sexual minorities and, as in the OP, homeless: people whom society values so lowly, the murderer gets points off for, in their POV twisted by thrill and bloodlust, simply following society’s cue. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/11 "2021-10-20T13:49:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I don’t think it is controversial either. I was just pointing out that the standard defense in the US is “It’s someone else’s fault I did what I did.” I see this so-called reasoning with people in real-life too. I believe it is a reflection of American culture. I don’t know what this political commentary has to do with this breaking news thread about a tragedy. But since you brought it up, your argument can be refuted by pointing out that “American culture” also imposes some of the lengthiest and most barbaric prison sentences in the civilized world, where the emphasis is clearly on retribution rather than rehabilitation. So although defense counsel may try playing the “perp as a victim” card, it rarely works, even if it may sometimes be justified. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/12 "2021-10-20T15:34:33Z")
**Moderator Note** This is a breaking news thread. While everyone is free to express their opinions regarding the OP, political discussions and debates are off-topic. Anyone who wishes to discuss related political issues and such should feel free to do so, but we do ask that you take it to another thread (and link back to this thread as needed for context). Reminder to all about the rules for breaking news threads: > [@No political/religious jabs in breaking news threads in MPSIMS](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/no-political-religious-jabs-in-breaking-news-threads-in-mpsims/740558): > > This is not a new rule but rather codifies the existing informal guidelines. MPSIMS threads are often started to call attention to breaking news stories. Many posters value these threads because they offer new information and multiple cites about the event in one place. Often the information is rapidly changing and these threads can move fast. One of the advantages of the SDMB is that with many posters from around the world we often have a poster local to the situation or even involved who can … ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/14 "2021-10-20T16:57:34Z")
Here we go: [Legal defenses based on sympathy- valid legal tactic, or reflection of American society:? - In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defenses-based-on-sympathy-valid-legal-tactic-or-reflection-of-american-society/952833) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/15 "2021-10-20T20:36:56Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > You hear about this kind of stuff, but it always has a whiff of urban legend. Heck - many years ago, when I went to visit New York, my mother, very concerned, told me: “Be careful! They push people into the subway rails over there!” There have been several incidents of this type in NYC this year alone. Example: > **[Man spits on, shoves woman onto NYC train tracks: video](https://nypost.com/2021/08/26/man-spits-on-shoves-woman-onto-brooklyn-train-tracks/)** > > A plucky 28-year-old woman opted to fend off an unhinged attacker with a broom and “wet floor” sign at a Brooklyn subway station — before video caught him shoving her onto the tra… Earlier this month a woman on a N.Y. subway platform was pushed into the outside of a moving train and injured. Severe uncontrolled mental illness is one thing - but I don’t feel sorry for sociopaths who commit crimes like this for fun. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2021, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-in-the-hague-man-pushed-onto-incoming-tram/952815/16 "2021-10-21T06:43:54Z")
That is terrible. Homeless people are often the victims of a lot of violence (often implicitly sanctioned by society, and often unreported) but this is a step beyond that. I know exactly what you mean by the “urban legend turned real” observation, though. Very sad.