# Tragedy making faith stronger **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074 "2013-01-23T05:21:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/21 "2013-01-23T15:07:10Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In what way was he avoiding dealing with his grief? He uses his religious faith to cope with his grief. In fact, I have never noticed Christians as a whole to avoid grief. A few weeks ago I went to a funeral at a Baptist church with the eulogy given by a pastor and he specifically mentioned the grief and pain felt by all those who lost a friend/loved one. But surely you’ve been to funerals and for the immediate family, some have no tears and actually have smiles on their faces, and are convinced their loved ones are in heaven. I’ve experienced this a few times in my life with deeply religious people, some of which are my relatives. I’ve seen some speak at their funerals, and I must say it was quite remarkable how composed they were. For these same religious people, whom many I know also believe in a fiery literal hell, what would be the reaction if they thought they lost another loved one to this kind of place? Would the same peace and tranquility now be one of tremendous horror and grief? I doubt that it would, and I’m not sure why if they believed in it with the same conviction they believed in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/22 "2013-01-23T20:02:37Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > But surely you’ve been to funerals and for the immediate family, some have no tears and actually have smiles on their faces, and are convinced their loved ones are in heaven. I’ve never seen even the most religious person who did not recognize the pain of losing someone close to them. Even if they happen to smile and say, “he’s with God now.” > [@](#): > > I’ve experienced this a few times in my life with deeply religious people, some of which are my relatives. I’ve seen some speak at their funerals, and I must say it was quite remarkable how composed they were. Being composed doesn’t mean they’re not grieving. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/23 "2013-01-23T20:28:59Z")
Here’s my cynical response. It’s similar to holding a stock as it plummets in value (especially when it’s one’s main holding.) It’s an emotional response to an event we’re not prepared to deal with. It’s similar to the way that most beginning water skiers cling to the rope after they fall, even though this pushes them below the water line where they can’t breathe. Fortunately, eventually more significant reflexes kick in, so folks don’t tend to drown this way. The rope is the connection to safety (the boat). The fact that it’s no longer serving a useful purpose takes a while to sink in – and only sinks in because it’s totally obvious. Less cynical viewpoint: if religion gives life meaning to someone, then returning to that touchstone or value center gives stability and comfort. It also provides the hope that the tragedy wasn’t quite as bad as it seems, because all those kids are now happy and in heaven. There have been times that, had I a blue pill, I might have taken it. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/24 "2013-01-23T21:02:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If your faith is in a God who prevents bad things from ever happening, then a tragedy like this is going to weaken or kill such faith; but that’s not the kind of faith that mature Christians have. Everyone who’s been alive and paying attention knows bad things happen, and innocent people get hurt or killed. The Jesus we have faith in was himself tortured and executed. I’m curious, which god do you believe in? I ask because I’ve always heard the Christian god attributed with omnibenvolence, especially from the priests & nuns I knew as a kid. It was what allowed people to say things like ‘Jesus loves you’, etc. Should you not believe in the Christian god, no worries. But if you do, please elaborate on how think omnibenevolence is supposed to work. The confusion in this issue arises from the idea of omnibenevolence. How exactly can you love someone and watch them die horribly right in front of you knowing you could easily prevent it? Moreover, how could you cause the thing which is going to kill them, not doing anything about it, and then try to claim that you love them? It doesn’t make any sense to say that something is all loving, and then say that the same thing randomly kills the people he loves in horrible ways for no apparent reason. > [@](#): > > Tragedy can, and often does, bring people closer together—to each other, and to God. How exactly does tragedy bring someone closer to the thing that caused the tragedy in the first place? Does a violent rape and murder bring the victim’s family closer to the violent rapist & murderer? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/25 "2013-01-23T21:03:07Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In what way was he avoiding dealing with his grief? He uses his religious faith to cope with his grief. In fact, I have never noticed Christians as a whole to avoid grief. A few weeks ago I went to a funeral at a Baptist church with the eulogy given by a pastor and he specifically mentioned the grief and pain felt by all those who lost a friend/loved one. I did make a broad statement there. I don’t know exactly how the person referred to in the OP is acting. I’ve seen people enter a blissful state to escape their grief before, but it will come out eventually in some way. The same thing happens to people who ignore grief, turn to anger, or mask it with drugs and alcohol. But if religion helps some people deal with their grief, through companionship and comforting, more power to them. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/26 "2013-01-23T21:03:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Perhaps the strengthened faith is due to the need to believe that there was a higher purpose to the tragedy, and that it wasn’t just a terrible senseless act of violence showing what a cruel, cruel place the universe can be. It comforts me to think that it was senseless and random, rather than it being something God approved of on some level. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/27 "2013-01-23T21:05:34Z")
It’s really not a hard reaction to understand. If there is no God, then this guy’s kid is just gone. Forever. There’s nothing left of him as a person, just a mouldering sack of proteins, and even that’ll be gone in short order. If there _is_ a God, however, then his kid isn’t “really” dead. He’s in heaven, where he’s happy, and will eventually be reunited with his family. I imagine that right now, this guy (and all the other parents) are desperate to find some way to make this whole thing “not happen” in some way, to find some sort of loophole or exception in reality that will undo the unimaginable pain they’ve experienced. Faith in God is their only hope in that regard. I hope it works for them. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/28 "2013-01-23T21:09:44Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > It comforts me to think that it was senseless and random, rather than it being something God approved of on some level. Everything that happened, God approved of on some level. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/29 "2013-01-23T21:16:31Z")
I think that, although religious belief gets singled out, it is just a variant of normalcy bias, the perfectly common thought that, all is “not as bad as it seems,” that allows people to sit immobile on burning planes, fail to leave the path of oncoming storms or believe that the economy will soon turn the corner. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/30 "2013-01-23T21:25:30Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > The confusion in this issue arises from the idea of omnibenevolence. How exactly can you love someone and watch them die horribly right in front of you knowing you could easily prevent it? Moreover, how could you cause the thing which is going to kill them, not doing anything about it, and then try to claim that you love them? It doesn’t make any sense to say that something is all loving, and then say that the same thing randomly kills the people he loves in horrible ways for no apparent reason. > > How exactly does tragedy bring someone closer to the thing that caused the tragedy in the first place? I do not blame God for the tragedy. God did not cause the tragedy; God did not kill the children. But you would still ask how a benevolent God could _allow_ something like this to happen. _Could_ God “easily prevent it”? Why didn’t God prevent it? This is the problem of evil, which, as has been noted, is its own issue, and is not something we’re going to resolve here. I will just note that if God _had_ prevented this _particular_ tragedy—whether by some form of divine intervention, or by creating the world in the first place in such a way that such an event was physically impossible—that would still leave me with the problem of all the _other_ tragedies that God failed to prevent. Unless he prevented all bad things whatsoever, in which case he would have created a world in which it was impossible for bad things to happen. Which, I imagine, might well be incompatible with other things that are desirable, like human freedom or our actions mattering somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/31 "2013-01-23T21:28:18Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Which, I imagine, might well be incompatible with other things that are desirable, like human freedom or our actions mattering somehow. I, for one, am grateful to God for letting children die so that my actions matter. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/32 "2013-01-23T21:36:27Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Everything that happened, God approved of on some level. I’m not a believer, thank god. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/33 "2013-01-23T21:41:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m a non-Christian, and I think I could. Faith in a benevolent God is tested constantly by the reality of the world, and its seeming lack of a benevolent outside influence. When faced with an arduous test, such as the massacre, one’s faith will either be broken, or strengthened, by the experience. If you hadn’t previously had to reconcile your faith with such a horrible occurance, doing so means raising the bar of what would make you abandon your faith to a new high. Going forward, an event like, say, failing to achieve a promotion you prayed for, would be less likely to rattle your faith. I appreciate your attempts to be be civil and phrase a religious viewpoint in a positive way. However, this isn’t really what I had in mind at all. Some people [tell us](http://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-Have-Been-Existence/dp/0199549265/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358977014&sr=1-1&keywords=better+never+to+have+been) that life is meaningless, that all human experience is bad, or that it would be better if we’d never existed at all. By contrast, the Christian worldview affirms the goodness of creation and the fact that each of us is extremely fortunate to be alive, especially since the odds would seem be against it. As Chesterton says, “Men spoke much in my boyhood of restricted or ruined men of genius: and it was common to say that many a man was a Great Might-Have-Been. To me it is a more solid and startling fact that any man in the street is a Great Might-Not-Have-Been.” However, in the course of daily life we often forget this fact. When we a person close to me dies or I nearly die, it draws my mind back to the central fact that I’m extremely fortunate to be alive and also extremely fortunate to have so many other wonderful living people around me. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/34 "2013-01-23T21:47:01Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I appreciate your attempts to be be civil and phrase a religious viewpoint in a positive way. However, this isn’t really what I had in mind at all. > > Some people [tell us](http://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-Have-Been-Existence/dp/0199549265/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358977014&sr=1-1&keywords=better+never+to+have+been) that life is meaningless, that all human experience is bad, or that it would be better if we’d never existed at all. By contrast, the Christian worldview affirms the goodness of creation and the fact that each of us is extremely fortunate to be alive, especially since the odds would seem be against it. As Chesterton says, “Men spoke much in my boyhood of restricted or ruined men of genius: and it was common to say that many a man was a Great Might-Have-Been. To me it is a more solid and startling fact that any man in the street is a Great Might-Not-Have-Been.” However, in the course of daily life we often forget this fact. When we a person close to me dies or I nearly die, it draws my mind back to the central fact that I’m extremely fortunate to be alive and also extremely fortunate to have so many other wonderful living people around me. There’s nothing uniquely Christian about that worldview. Just because you found a book on Amazon doesn’t mean that all, or even a large portion of non-religious folk are sobbing nihilists. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/35 "2013-01-23T22:45:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I do not blame God for the tragedy. God did not cause the tragedy; God did not kill the children. Huh. And here I thought that god was responsible for everything, all of creation, etc. Why did god make someone like that? Doesn’t really seem like the act of someone who loves humans, making insane murderers. Are you sure he wasn’t guiding the hands of the man who did it? Cuz he seems to do that an awful lot with people like doctors and scientists and rescue workers. So what about things like tornadoes & floods? Is he responsible for the deaths caused by those? > [@](#): > > I will just note that if God _had_ prevented this _particular_ tragedy—whether by some form of divine intervention, or by creating the world in the first place in such a way that such an event was physically impossible—that would still leave me with the problem of all the _other_ tragedies that God failed to prevent. Unless he prevented all bad things whatsoever, in which case he would have created a world in which it was impossible for bad things to happen. Which, I imagine, might well be incompatible with other things that are desirable, like human freedom or our actions mattering somehow. You still haven’t answered my question. What is omnibenevolence? How does god love everyone and then randomly kill them in horrible ways for no apparent reason? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/36 "2013-01-23T22:54:38Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > In times of trouble, you cling more tightly to what is dear to you - it can be really that simple. E.g., Mother Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/37 "2013-01-23T22:58:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > By contrast, the Christian worldview affirms the goodness of creation and the fact that each of us is extremely fortunate to be alive, especially since the odds would seem be against it. I thought the Christian worldview held that Creation, and all of its inhabitants, were inescapably tainted by evil, and the best thing that could possibly happen to a person is to finally leave it? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/38 "2013-01-23T23:29:32Z")
> [@HennaDancer](#): > > What’s the thought process, or psychology, or whatever you want to call it here? If you really expect a religious person to change his views just because he sees a bunch of dead kids you could pin it on the usual confirmation bias and the backfire effect. It’s not much of a mental block if you’re a Christian who believes man is fallen and wicked though. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/39 "2013-01-24T00:09:24Z")
These kinds of people always makes me sick. No reality is stronger than the one in their head. If I were religious, and I’m glad I’m not, and I didn’t get answers to these questions, I’m out of the cult. It pisses me off that people are continuously dying and being harmed for these people. I would not support such a god. I would be first in line to overthrow such a god. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074/40 "2013-01-24T01:37:08Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If you really expect a religious person to change his views just because he sees a bunch of dead kids you could pin it on the usual confirmation bias and the backfire effect. It worked on my grandfather. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tragedy-making-faith-stronger/648074.md?page=3)