# Train commuting in the U.S. and around the world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 24, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788 "2012-02-24T01:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/21 "2012-02-24T09:32:18Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I don’t get the logic at all? The majority of users of the London Underground and of Tokyo Subways are also commuters in that they use it to get to and from work. Are you using the word commuter to only mean people that travel above a certain distance to work? > > In my mind an inner city resident that travels 4 km on the subway to work is still a commuter. I was using NYC as a model. I wanted to get commuters exclusively. In NYC, the vast majority of people who travel from the suburb are commuters, meaning they take the train every day to and from work. The subway system is no doubt used by commuters, but also by people going shopping, going to dinner, etc. Like I said, it was very crude. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/22 "2012-02-24T13:45:30Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Only a crazy person would prefer to drive in London rather than take the train! Nobody drives in the city anymore, it’s just too crowded! ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/23 "2012-02-24T13:56:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I was using NYC as a model. I wanted to get commuters exclusively. In NYC, the vast majority of people who travel from the suburb are commuters, meaning they take the train every day to and from work. The subway system is no doubt used by commuters, but also by people going shopping, going to dinner, etc. Like I said, it was very crude. It’s a tricky one. On the London Underground Wikipedia page, the figures given are 3.4 million passengers on weekdays, and 3 million on weekends. But there is no way on god’s green earth that there are only 400,000 Underground commuters in London. A quick look at the platform of pretty much any station in any city with an extensive underground system at rush hour makes that common sense. Also, several of the Underground lines in London and many other cities are extremely long, and are under/overground hybrids (e.g. the Metropolitan Line which goes all the way out to Buckinghamshire). Have a look at the [London rail system](http://www.clarksbury.com/cdl/maps/connect99c.jpg). It’s mindboggling and the Underground is a vast part of it. I would argue that excluding the idea of commuters using excusively underground systems risks eliminating a vast number of train-borne commuters and makes your ‘crude’ estimate almost totally useless - though I acknowledge it’s terribly difficult to work out a true figure. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/24 "2012-02-24T15:55:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [Above ground vs. underground] was just a crude way to try to separate commuters from overall ridership. Very crude. I’ll say. After all, it doesn’t even apply to New York, where regional rail riders are underground for the last few miles of their journeys into Penn or GCT and subway riders are above ground in the outer boroughs. That’s why we usually look to such elements as equipment type, fare structure, and station spacing when distinguishing _metro/rapid transit_ from \*suburban/regional rail. \* ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/25 "2012-02-24T16:14:26Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > I’ll say. After all, it doesn’t even apply to New York, where regional rail riders are underground for the last few miles of their journeys into Penn or GCT and subway riders are above ground in the outer boroughs. That’s why we usually look to such elements as equipment type, fare structure, and station spacing when distinguishing _metro/rapid transit_ from \*suburban/regional rail. > \* While I agree completely with your larger point and criticism of the crudeness of the parameters I’ve been using, the underground portion of the MetroNorth and LIRR lines is largely just an accident of getting to the underground terminal. Completely so for MetroNorth and I think for the LIRR, though I could be wrong about that. But like I said, it’s a crude distinction to apply. Do you have a better one? How might you have phrased the query? By the way, who do you mean by “we”? Do you work in the industry? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/26 "2012-02-24T16:26:11Z")
Isn’t it much simpler, that all travel between 7am-9:30am and 4:30-8pm is commuter while the rest is “everything else”. If I’m not traveling to work I go out of my way to avoid going anywhere in rush hour, as do most people in my experience, so it’s pretty safe to assume commuter traffic above 90 percent during those hours. The true figure would be transport by subway, light rail, regional rail, and high speed rail\* etc etc during those hours. - a huge number of people in Japan commute from up to 200 km from Tokyo on the Shinkansen (Bullet Train) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/27 "2012-02-24T16:32:23Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Isn’t it much simpler, that all travel between 7am-9:30am and 4:30-8pm is commuter while the rest is “everything else”. If I’m not traveling to work I go out of my way to avoid going anywhere in rush hour, as do most people in my experience, so it’s pretty safe to assume commuter traffic above 90 percent during those hours. > > The true figure would be transport by subway, light rail, regional rail, and high speed rail\* etc etc during those hours. > > - a huge number of people in Japan commute from up to 200 km from Tokyo on the Shinkansen (Bullet Train) Using time would be WAY more accurate, but I didn’t (don’t) that information would be available that way. Except by the actual rail lines. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/28 "2012-02-24T16:33:05Z")
> [@Craz3d117](#): > > Did some quick number crunching and found that, by ratio of annual passenger rides to city population, Washington D.C has the highest rate in America, followed by Boston, New York City and Chicago (in that order). > > - Population was hard to judge for D.C, due to the fact that its subway system extends slightly beyond the bounds of D.C itself. Did you use only the DC population of about 620,000 or the metro area estimate of 5.58 million? The MARC Train, which I take, has about 33,000 riders according to Wiki, they come from as far away as Martinsburg, WV and close to Philadelphia, PA which are outside of the Metro area. I honestly can’t see DC having more riders then NYC. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/29 "2012-02-24T16:36:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Using time would be WAY more accurate, but I didn’t (don’t) that information would be available that way. Except by the actual rail lines. Sure, but the rail lines have no reason to hide this info, with automated ticket systems they know their rider numbers broken down by time of day perfectly well and they probably make it publicly available on their websites so there’s no reason to use such a crude measure. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/30 "2012-02-24T16:58:48Z")
> [@Craz3d117](#): > > Did some quick number crunching and found that, by ratio of annual passenger rides to city population, Washington D.C has the highest rate in America, followed by Boston, New York City and Chicago (in that order). > > - Population was hard to judge for D.C, due to the fact that its subway system extends slightly beyond the bounds of D.C itself. Does this account for the multiple commuter rails options in NYC (which, in addition to the MTA subways, also has the LIRR, the Metro-North, the PATH trains and probably others) and Chicago (which has the Metra and the South Shore Line in addition to the CTA)? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/31 "2012-02-24T17:23:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > it’s a crude distinction to apply. Do you have a better one? How might you have phrased the query? > > By the way, who do you mean by “we”? Do you work in the industry? That’s why I keep trying to lead you to the well-accepted terms _metro_ or _rapid transit_ vs. _regional rail._ > **[Passenger rail terminology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_terminology)** > > Various terms are used for passenger railway lines and equipment; the usage of these terms differs substantially between areas: > A rapid transit system is an electric railway characterized by high speed (~80 km/h (50 mph)) and rapid acceleration. It uses passenger railcars operating singly or in multiple unit trains on fixed rails. It operates on separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded (i.e. is fully grade-separated from other traffic). The APTA defin... My background is in city planning, particularly transport, and I continue to follow the field closely. Some of my mapping clients are transit agencies and DOTs. But mostly I mean “we” transit and rail enthusiasts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/32 "2012-02-24T17:54:53Z")
I wouldn’t say that “very few people” commute by rail in San Francisco, even if we’re excluding subways/metros and light rail (over 150,000 daily users of San Francisco Muni’s Metro) and just counting commuter rail, and even if we’re counting BART (367k weekdays/309k weekends) as a subway/metro. Some quick googling found that over 40,000 people ride CalTrain every weekday, which is pretty good for a single commuter line. For comparison, Caltrain would be busier than any single Metra (Chicago commuter rail) line except for the BNSF and possibly the UP-Northwest. As for the commute-vs-pleasure part of the question, Caltrain’s 40k weekday ridership contrasts to about 13k on Saturdays and 9k on Sundays. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/33 "2012-02-24T19:15:01Z")
The answer to the question has got to be Tokyo. There are many train lines, and each one carries a huge number of passengers. I’ve been there, and also to several of the other places mentioned in this thread: New York, Washington, London, etc. The difference is like night and day. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/34 "2012-02-24T19:27:36Z")
CalTrain would be probably pretty invisible for a City (and County) of San Francisco resident, unless they are reverse commuting down the Peninsula for their work. But as John Bredin said just above, it probably keeps enough Peninsula commuters off the freeways and major feeders to and from those freeways to keep the general freeway gridlock from being completely unbearable. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/35 "2012-02-24T19:55:11Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > That’s why I keep trying to lead you to the well-accepted terms _metro_ or _rapid transit_ vs. _regional rail._ > [Passenger rail terminology - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_rail_terminology) > > My background is in city planning, particularly transport, and I continue to follow the field closely. Some of my mapping clients are transit agencies and DOTs. But mostly I mean “we” transit and rail enthusiasts. The link was helpful. Thanks. I’m not sure that the terminology is as clear/specific in the lay person’s mind as it is in yours, or that the distinction is always clear in the real world, but I think what you suggest is better than how I’ve been going about it. I certainly have nothing to lose by adopting your terminology, and it would probably help. So, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![aaaa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@aaaa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/36 "2012-02-24T21:28:35Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > For some reason that list doesn’t include Shanghai at all, which is 3rd largest after Tokyo and Mumbai at 5.5 million passengers per day. > > [Shanghai Metro - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro) > > EDIT: just found Guangzhou Metro, China’s 3rd largest city claims a record of 7.5 million per day > [Guangzhou Metro - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou_Metro) > > I’m not sure why the OP wants to separate above ground and subway, thats really not possible. The JR lines into Tokyo are above ground for most of the way and then underground in central Tokyo and often subway lines and JR lines will share the same tracks for intervals. All of the subway lines also go above ground in Tokyo at their termination points out in the suburbs. > **[List of metro systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_systems_by_annual_passenger_rides)** > > This list of metro systems includes electrified rapid transit train systems worldwide. In some parts of the world, metro systems are referred to as subways, undergrounds, tubes, mass rapid transit (MRT), metrô or U-Bahn. As of 1 July 2025,\[update\] 204 cities in 65 countries operate 920 metro lines. > The London Underground first opened as an underground railway in 1863 and its first electrified underground line, the City and South London Railway, opened in 1890, making it the world's first dee... Shanghai is fifth and Guangzhou is sixth. Mumbai isn’t on the list, probably because their metro is not set to open until December 2012. > **[Mumbai Metro](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_Metro)** > > .mw-parser-output .RMbox{box-shadow:0 2px 2px 0 rgba(0,0,0,.14),0 1px 5px 0 rgba(0,0,0,.12),0 3px 1px -2px rgba(0,0,0,.2)}.mw-parser-output .RMinline{float:none;width:100%;margin:0;border:none}.mw-parser-output table.routemap{padding:0;border:0;border-collapse:collapse;white-space:nowrap;line-height:1.2;margin:auto}.mw-parser-output table.routemap .RMcollapse{margin:0;border-collapse:collapse;vertical-align:middle}.mw-parser-output table.routemap .RMreplace{margin:0;border-collapse:collapse;ver... Unless you were talking about something else? Probably this… > **[Mumbai Suburban Railway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_Suburban_Railway)** > > Central Railway zone > 585.9 kilometres (364.1 mi) including Vasai-Roha Line which currently has only MEMU service. > The Mumbai Suburban Railway (colloquially called local trains or simply locals) consists of exclusive inner suburban railway lines augmented by commuter rail on main lines serving outlying suburbs to serve the Mumbai Metropolitan Region. Spread over 450 kilometres (280 mi), the suburban railway operates 2,342 train services and carries more than 7.5 million commuters daily. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788/37 "2012-02-25T16:14:25Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Sure, but the rail lines have no reason to hide this info, with automated ticket systems they know their rider numbers broken down by time of day perfectly well and they probably make it publicly available on their websites so there’s no reason to use such a crude measure. Suburban rail systems don’t generally have turnstiles. They have no way to know what time of day a monthly pass or multiride ticket is used. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-commuting-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/613788.md?page=1)