# Train Your Foreign Replacement = "Dig Your Own Grave?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584 "2004-04-06T17:27:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/21 "2004-04-06T22:22:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In today’s [USA Today](http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-04-06-replace_x.htm), there’s an article about the horrors of workers who are laid off and then offered additional severance benefits or other payments to train their replacements. The replacements in these cases seem to be mostly Indian workers, who can be hired for substantially less than their American predecessors. > > Now, I certainly sympathize with someone who loses work. > > But frankly, it is a mystery to me why these people seem to feel they are entitled to a job when others can do the same job for less money. They certainly don’t have to train their replacements, but if they choose to do so in order to get the better severance package or the extra paycheck, that seems like nothing more than another business deal to me. It’s certainly not “digging your own grave” – you have the choice of walking away. > > - Rick It’s quite simple, really. Nobody likes getting the short end of the stick. Nobody likes dedicating years toward obtaining a degree, and then years in the career that they trained for, and then finding that they’re completely redundant. The final result of unemployment, or underemployment in a devil-take-the-hindmost economy is potentially devastating, and frightening to those of us still drawing a good paycheck. Maintaining what most people consider a decent standard of living for most of the population, in a world with a superabundance of dirt-cheap labor, is a challenge that all of us will have to overcome together. Labor will likely have to make concessions, but so must management, if only to protect their own consumer base. I think some protectionist mechanisms will need to remain in place to protect labor, and employees will have to be more flexible. Fortunately, by all accounts, outsourcing does not always prove to be a profit gravy train, so there’s a built-in protectionist mechanism right there. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/22 "2004-04-07T02:33:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but Lou Dobbs (on CNN) is practically on a crusade (oops, there’s that word again) to reign in outsourcing. It’s shocking how a supposedly respected business commentator can dish out such rubish as has done recently. Hey, I started a thread on this a while back and you never showed up! > **[What's up Lou Dobbs' ass?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=217003)** > > Lou Dobbs did a series of special reports on the issue of globalization, no, sorry, the issue of “out-sourcing of American jobs”. I thought he was going to look at the issue from all angles. He did bring in people from over the entire spectrum to... His crusade is not just out-sourcing… he deliberately conflates illegal immigration, legal migration, legal temporary workers and out-sourcing. It’s like Michael Savage discussing the nuances of complex issues. Is Lou Dobbs known for his business acumen? I wonder how because he is as dense as Jim Breuer on drugs. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/23 "2004-04-07T02:39:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _finagle wrote:_ > I’m a bit dubious about the claims that outsourcing is ultimately a good thing – they seem to be based on the theory that eventually salaries will equalize as the talent pool overseas is consumed and the standard of living overseas also increases. That’s only a small part of the idea, and not the most important. The more important aspect is that the company must do everything it can to survive, to provide the best product at the lowest cost. Keeping your higher-paying job in the US while it can be done as well for much less in India doesn’t help the company in the marketplace. And if a company can’t compete in the marketplace, all its jobs will be gone. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/24 "2004-04-07T02:42:17Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Just how possible is it for an American to follow their job to India? And I’m not talking about just the different culture and SOL problems, I’m talking about legal immigration? I know from personal experience it’s not that easy. It is not easy for foreign nationals to find work in the US. Companies go out of their way to avoid sponsorship of the work visa. There is an governmental cap of 65000 (which by the way was filled up half way through the fiscal year). If temporary work authorization is difficult, immigrating through work would be that much more harder. The biggest barriers to Americans working in India could be the language/culture issues and the fact that Americans would find it too difficult to compete in a market of overabundant supply and relatively low standard of living. How is it harder legally? Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/25 "2004-04-07T02:47:42Z")
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it a requirement of immigrant worker status that you be filling a job no American can do, and might I add, to prevent just this? So aren’t these companies involved in prima facia immigrant smuggling and subject to RICO? Not that Bush would prosecute them, of course. But unless I’m missing something, this is an open and shut case. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/26 "2004-04-07T02:47:49Z")
> [@litost](#): > > It is not easy for foreign nationals to find work in the US. Companies go out of their way to avoid sponsorship of the work visa. There is an governmental cap of 65000 (which by the way was filled up half way through the fiscal year). If temporary work authorization is difficult, immigrating through work would be that much more harder. > > The biggest barriers to Americans working in India could be the language/culture issues and the fact that Americans would find it too difficult to compete in a market of overabundant supply and relatively low standard of living. How is it harder legally? Please explain. No, I think you misunderstand. What people are talking about here are jobs being outsourced to India, after the Indian employee comes over to visit and get “training” by the soon to be ex-employee here. The job goes for a lower wage in India due to the much lower standard of living. Saying “if someone can do the job for less, let them” is not valid in my mind because the American cannot easily go to India to follow their job and maintain any chance of a competitive standard of living. It would be just as invalid if used when Indian jobs were going to lower-paid persons in Senegal (which has happened, actually) because the Indian worker is not on the same footing. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/27 "2004-04-07T03:19:54Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it a requirement of immigrant worker status that you be filling a job no American can do, and might I add, to prevent just this? So aren’t these companies involved in prima facia immigrant smuggling and subject to RICO? As a _very_ general rule, yes, in order to get employment-based permanent residence, you have to have a) a U.S. company willing to sponsor you, and b) sbe able to show that the company is paying the prevailing wage for the position and geographic area, and c) that there are no available U.S. workers who are both available and qualified for the job. However, permanent residence is not the same as a temporary work visa; the qualifications and processes and timing are vastly different. On the other hand, there are temporary visa categories besides the H-1B category that **litost** refers to, the one with the 65,000 annual quota. One common category that has come under special scrutiny lately is the L-1 (for intracompany transferees). The neato thing about the L-1, in contrast to the H-1B, is that there is no prevailing wage requirement. Frankly, I’m surprised that loophole hasn’t been closed this Congressional session. (Part of the problem is that some of the ïmmigration reform" bills that have come up show zero understanding of how the system works and how the various categories are typically used.) However, consular officers in charge of issuing visas have their own ways of combatting cheap foreign labor; the L-1 comes in 2 flavors, L-1a for multinational managers (who aren’t generally the issue), and L-1B for workers with “specialized knowledge.” The consular officers, if they get wind that someone is being brought in and severely underpaid to outsource work that would otherwise be performed in the U.S, frequently refuse to issue visas on the grounds that “hey, if you’re paying this guy 1/3 of the going wage in the U.S., he must not be so special.” And if a consular officer refuses to issue a visa, there is essentially no way to appeal it except for basically begging the State Dept. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/28 "2004-04-07T04:07:39Z")
> [@litost](#): > > Hey, I started a thread on this a while back and you never showed up! Sorry. 🙂 That thread was started before I clued in on Dobbs’ dubiously denouncing diatribes against outsourcing. I had never really formed an opinion about the guy beforehand, and just assumed he was knowledgeable about fundamental economic principles. Apparently that is not so. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/29 "2004-04-07T04:51:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Companies go out of their way to avoid sponsorship of the work visa. That has not been my experience, at all. I know a number of companies that go out of their way to find imported labor to replace current workers. They do not necessarily even pay them less. What they get is a bonded servant who must do everything he is ordered to do or face deportation. A co-worker got placed at an outfit, last year, because their imported worker had a bureaucracy SNAFU getting in to the country. As soon as the paperwork was cleared, the guy I know was thrown out to let the alien do the job. There are at least 150 (perhaps 400) out-of-work programmers in Northeast Ohio who could have done the same job. The company was not even saving money, because the body shop was charging the same rate for both workers. The only “advantage” that the company got was having an employee who could not argue with them over policies and direction. (Of course, the alien was less able to communicate with the users on design and problem issues, but at least he could not dig in his heels and demand quality work.) While the client company refuses to discuss their hiring practices, as is their right, the word from several people in the organization is that they have been instructed to get foreign labor whenever they have an opening. I actually do not know _any_ companies that _avoid_ sponsorships. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/30 "2004-04-07T06:12:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > A co-worker got placed at an outfit, last year, because their imported worker had a bureaucracy SNAFU getting in to the country. As soon as the paperwork was cleared, the guy I know was thrown out to let the alien do the job. There are at least 150 (perhaps 400) out-of-work programmers in Northeast Ohio who could have done the same job. The company was not even saving money, because the body shop was charging the same rate for both workers. The only “advantage” that the company got was having an employee who could not argue with them over policies and direction. (Of course, the alien was less able to communicate with the users on design and problem issues, but at least he could not dig in his heels and demand quality work.) While the client company refuses to discuss their hiring practices, as is their right, the word from several people in the organization is that they have been instructed to get foreign labor whenever they have an opening. > > I actually do not know _any_ companies that _avoid_ sponsorships. The situation you describe might be specific to your company or to programmer positions. Many companies rarely sponsor visas including giants like Coca-Cola and Unilever. For example, Unilever only accepts application if you have a permanent right to work in that country: [http://www.unilever.com/Careers/apply/](http://www.unilever.com/Careers/apply/) The same is true for its biggest competitor P&G: [http://www.pg.com/jobs/sectionmain.jhtml](http://www.pg.com/jobs/sectionmain.jhtml) To even those who might sponsor, they see it as a legal hurdle and want to avoid it if possible, i.e., if they can find people with a right to work. This is especially true in the current economy. I find it bizarre that your company would rather hire a foreign national for the same salary because s/he would be subservient. Again, this way of thinking might work for programmer-type jobs but I don’t see it working for engineers, scientists, consultants etc. I am in university and we have a career center to coordinate campus recruiting. 80% of the positions are only open to people with work authorization. This trend holds everywhere. Feel free to check online websites. I fervently wish what you were saying is true but based on months and months of looking for work, I can categorically tell you it is not. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/31 "2004-04-07T06:17:40Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > As a _very_ general rule, yes, in order to get employment-based permanent residence, you have to have a) a U.S. company willing to sponsor you, and b) sbe able to show that the company is paying the prevailing wage for the position and geographic area, and c) that there are no available U.S. workers who are both available and qualified for the job. Does H1-B require the employer to prove the non-availability of US workers? I didn’t think it did. Also, I was curious. If the H1-B gets filled up, is there any other category that the same employer can file a work visa for? (Assuming, L-whatever is ruled out — interesting stuff there about the L-visa) ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/32 "2004-04-07T06:56:31Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > No, I think you misunderstand. What people are talking about here are jobs being outsourced to India, after the Indian employee comes over to visit and get “training” by the soon to be ex-employee here. The job goes for a lower wage in India due to the much lower standard of living. Saying “if someone can do the job for less, let them” is not valid in my mind because the American cannot easily go to India to follow their job and maintain any chance of a competitive standard of living. It would be just as invalid if used when Indian jobs were going to lower-paid persons in Senegal (which has happened, actually) because the Indian worker is not on the same footing. I was responding to an earlier post of yours (see below). It looks like you factored SOL out of the equation and were talking about the legal issues only. > [@Una Persson](#): > > Just how possible is it for an American to follow their job to India? And I’m not talking about just the different culture and SOL problems, I’m talking about legal immigration? I know from personal experience it’s not that easy. . ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/33 "2004-04-07T10:47:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > [Re: changing workers’ expectations that there will be jobs for them.] How? The only collective “we” in existence is the government. Newspapers aren’t doing it. TV isn’t doing it. It’s not going to happen unless someone mandates that it be done. You’ve ruled out a government program, so do “we” get this done? For starters, just by discussing it openly so people can see what the real issues are. You and **Bricker** , for example, are IMO doing exactly the right thing by starting a public discussion of workers who feel screwed by the system, and candidly expressing your contempt and mystification about those workers’ feeling that they ought not to have been screwed. That’s very honest, and the more honesty we get about this, the better off we’ll all be in the long run. It’s no use trying to sustain the illusion that our employers care about what happens to us or that our employment system is inherently designed to work to the benefit of employees. The best time to destroy that illusion is **before** complacent workers find themselves staring at a pink slip. Keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/34 "2004-04-07T10:59:38Z")
Globalisation must work _both_ ways. If poor countries open their product/natural resource markets up to us, we must open our _labour_ market up to them. (Incidentally, what is the company going to do if you train your replacement utterly incompetently: fire you? I suspect these companies are opening themselves up to spiteful sabotage, which a jury might well find understandable, if illegal, in the circumstances.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/35 "2004-04-07T13:14:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For me, I can tell you that I mkae a comfortable living now, and if someone offered me $500 to don a tutu and dance like a monkey, I’d have no problems doing it. That’s $500 towards my wife’s new kitchen, or towards my son’s music lessons, or funding for 20 Bricker Challenges. Why not? To be fair, I’d guess that this is due in part to the fact that you’d be making the choice very freely: you don’t need the money, so you’d be acting on a whim in order to fund a luxury. It’d be a little more humiliating if someone knew that $500 meant the difference between paying next month’s rent or not for you and was purposely using your financial difficulty to their advantage. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/36 "2004-04-07T13:21:30Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > To be fair, I’d guess that this is due in part to the fact that you’d be making the choice very freely: you don’t need the money, so you’d be acting on a whim in order to fund a luxury. It’d be a little more humiliating if someone knew that $500 meant the difference between paying next month’s rent or not for you and was purposely using your financial difficulty to their advantage. That’s an extremely valid point. I’d still do it, but I admit that the feeling I first had when I read the scenario would be very different under those circumstances. My first thought as I imagined it was, “Sucker! $500 for five minutes of insignificant nonsense! I’ll laugh all the way to the bank!” But I agree that this feeling is born from the freedom to do it or not. If I were financially strapped, I might well feel shame that this was my only viable method of earning money. On the other hand, if I could earn $500 per day, as a job, wearing a tutu and dancing about for a few minutes… well, that’s $2500 per week or $130,000 per year. If I had to do that to survive, I think it wouldn’t be so bad. It’s not like I’d be giving blowjobs or writing for the New York Times. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/37 "2004-04-07T13:45:43Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > To be fair, I’d guess that this is due in part to the fact that you’d be making the choice very freely: you don’t need the money, so you’d be acting on a whim in order to fund a luxury. It’d be a little more humiliating if someone knew that $500 meant the difference between paying next month’s rent or not for you and was purposely using your financial difficulty to their advantage. And also to be fair, your analogy brings up a picture of Sadistic Managers sitting in a roon: SM1: [puffing on a cigar] Let’s lay off some workers and transfer their jobs to India. SM2: [puffing an even bigger cigar] Good idea. But let’s have some fun while we’re at it and watch the workers squirm while we ask them to train their replacements. The point of the tutu dance is specifically to humiliate someone. There is no intent to humiliate in the case of the OP. The fact that the worker might \*\*feel \*\* humiliated is understandable. But I don’t think your analogy serves a purpose in this debate other than a vague appeal to emotions. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/38 "2004-04-07T13:57:14Z")
Let’s OUTSOURCE politicians and academics! Just think, for what we pay a US Senator, we could have at least 5 Indian politicians! This goes for academics as well…a US college professor (ideally, one of those economists who is always harping about the BENEFITS of outsourcing) probably costs the university $200,000 a year in pay and benefits…let’s bring in Indoian economists who will work for $40K! Pass it on, OUTSOURCE politicians today-save a bundle! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/39 "2004-04-07T13:59:16Z")
**Bricker:** \*On the other hand, if I could earn $500 per day, as a job, wearing a tutu and dancing about for a few minutes… well, that’s $2500 per week or $130,000 per year. If I had to do that to survive, I think it wouldn’t be so bad. \* And I’m sure that most of the people you discuss in your OP would feel the same way. Unfortunately, what they’re getting is not an offer of a regular job with an extremely generous salary for five minutes daily of amateur entertainment. What they’re getting is laid off. And their soon-to-be-ex-employers are taking advantage of their soon-to-be-unemployment to get additional useful service out of them. I agree 100% that complaining won’t reinstate the jobs of these laid-off workers. But I don’t see how you can fail to understand why people might **feel** resentful about the callousness of this business deal, or feel as though they deserve a decent job. _It’s not like I’d be giving blowjobs or writing for the New York Times._ Oh, did the _Times_ print some embarrassing revelations about your contracting firm or something? I must have missed that article. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584/40 "2004-04-07T14:25:47Z")
This scenario is happening to me at this moment. A colleague of mine, together with some other people, has been flown to Bangalore to train workers there to do our jobs. Management are being vague about it, but we all know this will eventually spell the end of our jobs here. The colleague is actually not embarassed at all and is writing us enthusiastic e-mails about how good a time he is having. I do NOT resent the fact that he took this opportunity to work abroad and earn a good bonus. We all take the chances that we get. However, I do somewhat resent that he does not even pretend to feel a bit awkward as he is training his colleagues and in some cases his personal friends out of a job. I’m not the only one feeling this way in the office and if you put yourself in my position you would probably feel that way too. As for the bigger picture. No, I don’t feel this is good and fair. Everyone on the lower rungs of the employment ladder is trapped. We here in Ireland don’t earn a packet either, but we have to earn a living so we take what we can get, however exploitative it is. I just don’t see why just because the Indians are even more desperate that somehow makes it alright. Analogy: I sit here with a hundred plates of food. In front of me is one person who is very hungry and one who is near starvation. I then go and offer them “honest and fair” employment. The starving person will do the double the work that very hungry person will do for a half a plate of food. By the way, I do not offer them more, because if they will do the work for this amount, why should I? I then go about my business eating the remainder of my 99.5 plates of food and congratulating myself on how fair these economic mechanisms are and how I saved a poor fellow from starvation today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/train-your-foreign-replacement-dig-your-own-grave/238584.md?page=3)