# Traitor gets 30 months **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857 "2007-06-05T16:10:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/21 "2007-06-06T00:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] I’ll bet against number two since it’s my belief that a sitting federal judge can’t be fired by the President in any case. [/QUOTE] Ah. [Wikipedia at least](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._District_Judge) says I’m correct: > [@](#): > > “Article III federal judges” (as opposed to judges of some courts with special jurisdictions) serve “during good behavior” (often paraphrased as appointed “for life”). Although the legal orthodoxy is that judges cannot be removed from office except by impeachment by the House of Representatives followed by conviction by the Senate, several legal scholars, including William Rehnquist, Saikrishna Prakash and Steven D. Smith, have argued that the Good Behaviour Clause may permit removal by way of a writ of scire facias filed before a federal court, without resort to impeachment. In any case, judges hold their seats until they resign, die, are impeached and convicted, or, more controversially, removed by scire facias. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/22 "2007-06-06T01:34:13Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Ah. [Wikipedia at least](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._District_Judge) says I’m correct: [/QUOTE] The cite on _scire facias_ in Wiki says that the opinion that a federal judge may be removed by _scire facias_ is not widely held. In addition your cite doesn’t say, or even imply, that the president procedes by _scire facias_. It could be that the judiciary does so. Furthermore, the entity bringing the action isn’t the one making the final decision. The court to which the writ is brought decides. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/23 "2007-06-06T02:18:32Z")
[CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/05/cia.leak.trial/index.html) > [@](#): > > Cheney released a statement after the verdict saying he is “deeply saddened” by his former aide and friend’s conviction and he hopes that his appeal will “return a final result consistent with what we know of this fine man.” > > … > > A White House spokeswoman said President Bush “felt terrible” for Libby, his wife and children. A pardon is a certainty. The only question is when. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/24 "2007-06-06T02:26:36Z")
**John Mace:** > [@](#): > > Are those the guidelines, or is that what Fitzgerald asked for? I thought I heard on the news that the guidelines were 15-21 months. This USA Today story seems to confirm that. Those are both the applicable guidelines _and_ what Fitzgerald asked for. The USA Today story doesn’t take into account the mandatory cross-referencing provision. That’s the short answer. If you want a longer, more detailed answer, let me know and I’ll find some time tomorrow to provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/25 "2007-06-06T02:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/05/cia.leak.trial/index.html) A pardon is a certainty. The only question is when. [/QUOTE] I dunno. Dead Eye Dick hasn’t bothered to talk to Scooter since the conviction was handed down. They may be planning on letting him twist in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/26 "2007-06-06T03:02:21Z")
"A White House spokeswoman said President Bush “felt terrible” for Libby, his wife and children. " Think anyone in the WH press corps will have the balls to ask Bush if he also feels terrible about Valarie Plame having her career destroyed? Maybe Helen Thomas. I doubt anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/27 "2007-06-06T03:09:51Z")
[[Professor Farnsworth] Good news, everybody! GOP presidential candidates say they’d pardon Scooter if elected! [/PF]](http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/06/sweet_blog_special_at_gop_deba.html) > [@](#): > > The GOP White House hopefuls debating Tuesday night will provide cover for President Bush if he decides to pardon Lewis “Scooter” Libby, sentenced earlier today to 30 months in prison in the CIA leak case. Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, was also ordered to pay a $250,000 fine. He is appealing the sentence. All the major Republican presidential contenders were open to a pardon. I know it’s cliche, but, I smell Presidential Medal of Freedom! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/28 "2007-06-06T03:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] The cite on _scire facias_ in Wiki says that the opinion that a federal judge may be removed by _scire facias_ is not widely held. In addition your cite doesn’t say, or even imply, that the president procedes by _scire facias_. It could be that the judiciary does so. Furthermore, the entity bringing the action isn’t the one making the final decision. The court to which the writ is brought decides. [/QUOTE] 😕😕😕 I was citing that to show that the President CAN’T “fire” a federal judge. Did you misunderstand my point? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/29 "2007-06-06T04:02:17Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] 😕😕😕 I was citing that to show that the President CAN’T “fire” a federal judge. Did you misunderstand my point? [/QUOTE] let me check … yup, you weren’t confused, I was. That’s another damned mistake this year. Slithers offstage. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/30 "2007-06-06T04:09:37Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] That’s another damned mistake this year. [/QUOTE] You’ve reached your quota, and it’s only June. _shakes head_ ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/31 "2007-06-06T06:20:41Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Slithers offstage. [/QUOTE] Maybe you should ask **Qadgop** if he’ll let you borrow his hull for a while, till you feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/32 "2007-06-06T07:15:41Z")
Last time I heard **Qadgop** describe slithering around on his hull, it sounded [far too chilly](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8590357&postcount=27) to be somewhere you’d go voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/33 "2007-06-06T07:59:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] I really do think he’s going to squeal though. Taking a fall is one thing, but would anybody here do prison time to save a boss (even if there’s promise of pardon and compensation at the end of it)? [/QUOTE] A former Spanish Minister of the Interior and his #2 did it. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/34 "2007-06-06T15:50:20Z")
For Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard editor and Fox News contributer, this has become the straw that broke the camels back. He is [outraged](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/734azcei.asp) that our President has not yet pardoned this convicted felon. I’m constantly amazed at what the right finds to be outraged about. The fact that this administration has cocked up everything it has tried to do, has sold out it’s conservative values, raped the constitution, engendered anger at the US from all corners of the globe, stuck a stick in the hornets nest that is the middle east and can’t even help out it’s own citizens in an emergancy. That all gets passes, but W. Doesn’t pardon a man who outed a CIA operative, and THAT’S what gets the dander up? Seriously? What. The. Fuck. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/35 "2007-06-06T16:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] **John Mace:** Those are both the applicable guidelines _and_ what Fitzgerald asked for. The USA Today story doesn’t take into account the mandatory cross-referencing provision. That’s the short answer. If you want a longer, more detailed answer, let me know and I’ll find some time tomorrow to provide it. [/QUOTE] No need. But I still think this might give Bush the excuse he needs, because every report that I’ve seen that talks about this say something along the lines of the sentence being harsher than the sentencing guidelines, or at least at the harsher end of those guidelines. You would suggest that he got a light sentence. That, and if he has to go to jail while waiting to appeal. That also is being characterized as being harsher than normal for this type of crime. I think the legal analyst on NPR last night said something like: _The trend is to not do this, although it’s completely at the discretion of the judge, so he’s well within his rights to do this._ ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/36 "2007-06-06T17:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > No need. But I still think this might give Bush the excuse he needs, because every report that I’ve seen that talks about this say something along the lines of the sentence being harsher than the sentencing guidelines, or at least at the harsher end of those guidelines. You would suggest that he got a light sentence. I would suggest that, if the applicable sentencing guidelines range is 30-37 months (which it is, if the judge applies the cross-reference that he deemed to be mandatory), then the resultant sentence of the 30 months is at the low end of that, yes. 🙂 I also agree that the media—in particular the New York Times, which blatantly misstated things when it said that the judge’s sentence was a few months above the guidelines minimum—has not been incredibly accurate in characterizing either the issues surrounding the sentence or the sentence itself. At bottom, few in the media appear to actually understand the import of the cross-referencing provision, with one writer at the Washington Post going so far as to describe the arguments regarding that provision to be essentially wrangling over legal technicalities before “the main event” commenced yesterday, which really couldn’t be further from the truth. > [@](#): > > That, and if he has to go to jail while waiting to appeal. That also is being characterized as being harsher than normal for this type of crime. I think the legal analyst on NPR last night said something like: The trend is to not do this, although it’s completely at the discretion of the judge, so he’s well within his rights to do this. The applicable statute, 18 U.S.C. § 3143(b)(1), _requires_ that a defendant be held without bond pending appeal unless the defense can show, by clear and convincing evidence, that (among other things) the issues to be appealed raise “substantial questions of law or fact likely to result in reversal [or a new trial].” If the defense can’t show this, the defendant is held pending appeal. (It’s true that many courts appear to allow white-collar, non-violent defendants to be released pending appeal as a matter of course, but without the proper determination, I’m not sure how that isn’t blatant disregard of the statutory requirements.) What’s more, the District of Columbia Circuit has interpreted § 3143(b)(1) such that “a substantial question is 'a close question or one that very well could be decided the other way,” reasoning that “[t]he law has shifted from a presumption of release [pending appeal] to a presumption of valid conviction.” United States v. Perholtz, 835 F.2d 554, 555-56 (D.C. Cir. 1988) (citation and footnote omitted). So it seems like the judge is bound by the statute unless the defense can clearly and convincingly demonstrate that any of the potential appealable issues are close questions that could very well have been decided the other way. Which is a somewhat demanding standard. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/37 "2007-06-06T17:55:07Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] I would suggest that, if the applicable sentencing guidelines range is 30-37 months (which it is, if the judge applies the cross-reference that he deemed to be mandatory), then the resultant sentence of the 30 months is at the low end of that, yes. 🙂 I also agree that the media—in particular the New York Times, which blatantly misstated things when it said that the judge’s sentence was a few months above the guidelines minimum—has not been incredibly accurate in characterizing either the issues surrounding the sentence or the sentence itself. At bottom, few in the media appear to actually understand the import of the cross-referencing provision, with one writer at the Washington Post going so far as to describe the arguments regarding that provision to be essentially wrangling over legal technicalities before “the main event” commenced yesterday, which really couldn’t be further from the truth. [/quote] Yeah, well now you know how I feel when I read some science story in the news. 🙂 > [@](#): > > The applicable statute, 18 U.S.C. § 3143(b)(1), _requires_ that a defendant be held without bond pending appeal unless the defense can show, by clear and convincing evidence, that (among other things) the issues to be appealed raise “substantial questions of law or fact likely to result in reversal [or a new trial].” How about this fact: If you don’t let him out on bail while he’s appealing his case, Bush is going to pardon him and the verdict and your sentence isn’t going to mean shit, your honor. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/38 "2007-06-06T17:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, well now you know how I feel when I read some science story in the news. 🙂 That is an eminently fair point. 🙂 > [@](#): > > How about this fact: If you don’t let him out on bail while he’s appealing his case, Bush is going to pardon him and the verdict and your sentence isn’t going to mean shit, your honor. 😃 Heh. I have no special insight into this case. Being a lawyer in Washington, one can’t help but follow it a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/39 "2007-06-06T19:01:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] How about this fact: If you don’t let him out on bail while he’s appealing his case, Bush is going to pardon him and the verdict and your sentence isn’t going to mean shit, your honor. 😃 [/QUOTE] That suits me fine. Baiting Bush into granting a pardon is a hundred times more valuable as a political cudgel than seeing Libby go to jail. I’d make that trade in a hot New York minute. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857/40 "2007-06-06T20:13:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] How about this fact: If you don’t let him out on bail while he’s appealing his case, Bush is going to pardon him and the verdict and your sentence isn’t going to mean shit, your honor. 😃 [/QUOTE] I’m sorry but isn’t that exactly what I predicted upthread? 🙂 That guy is denied bail, Bush will pardon him within 72 hours. Why? **BECAUSE HE DOESN’T CARE.**. That’s why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitor-gets-30-months/406857.md?page=3)