# traitors **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 11, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765 "2003-10-11T00:29:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![YPOD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e99b99/32.png) [@YPOD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YPOD)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/1 "2003-10-11T00:29:37Z")
I was watching that so so TV movie about Benedict Arnold, when a question occurred to me. After BA, who were the worse traitors in American history? The only one who comes to mind is Tokyo Rose, and I kind of think she wasn’t really that guilty. Who else? ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/2 "2003-10-11T01:11:31Z")
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for selling atom bomb secrets to the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/3 "2003-10-11T01:19:57Z")
Executed yes…but most likely Ethel was innocent. And even Juluis wasn’t the main spy. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/4 "2003-10-11T01:26:47Z")
Is this GQ? Until we’re moved, I say it’s a toss-up between Ed Meese, John Poindexter, and John Ashcroft. But I’m leaning to Ashcroft. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/5 "2003-10-11T02:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YPOD \* > \*\*I was watching that so so TV movie about Benedict Arnold, when a question occurred to me. After BA, who were the worse traitors in American history? The only one who comes to mind is Tokyo Rose, and I kind of think she wasn’t really that guilty. Who else? \*\* She was [pardoned](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020221.html) by President Ford. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/6 "2003-10-11T03:15:27Z")
This will be a matter of opinion, and it doesn’t seem to be a debate yet, so I’ll move it to IMHO. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/7 "2003-10-11T04:47:51Z")
Klaus Fuchs, Who _was_ the main spy that Reeder alludes to. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/8 "2003-10-11T04:53:47Z")
Oops, Forgot about Aldrich Ames. He not only got a bunch of our operatives killed, but he was a despicable person to boot. The commies at least had ideals, twisted and wrong though they were. Ames OTOH: “I did it for the money” ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/9 "2003-10-11T05:10:17Z")
The Rosenbergs were spies at a particularly bad time to get caught spying. There’ve been many who’ve crossed the line. More recently we’ve seen Christopher Boyce and Andrew Lee, the Walker clan and, some will squeal, Pollard. Worst traitor? That edges you on up to the infidel v. heretic v. mercenary question. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/10 "2003-10-11T16:04:59Z")
This does bring up the question of whether a nation has the right to use its educational system to indoctrinate children to be loyal to the nation. Maybe there is no such thing as a traitor. Who decides what I’m supposed to be loyal to? The existence of this nation is based on the genocide of the Indians. What is so great about that? Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/11 "2003-10-11T17:32:03Z")
Are you only willing to consider those who have actually been found guilty of treason in a court of law? Or are you happy to have people speculate on their own definition of traitorous behavior, and give their opinion on who qualifies? If the latter, you’ll get response like **commasense** ’s nomination of Ashcroft (which i tend to agree with), and you’ll probably also get others nominating people like Jane Fonda, whose actions during the Vietnam War arguably came under the definition of providing “aid and comfort” to the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Babbington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Mr.Babbington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Babbington)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/12 "2003-10-11T18:21:40Z")
Benedict Arnold was not a traitor. He was a slimy bastard who sold out his cause, but he wasn’t a traitor. George Washington, Ben Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Horatio Gates, John Paul Jones, Nathan Hale, Paul Revere, Samuel Adams, Richard Henry Lee, Crispus Attucks, Caesar Rodney, Roger Sherman, Francis Marion, and others of their traitorous ilk were, however. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/13 "2003-10-11T18:30:18Z")
Very true, Mr. Babbington. Lends a different connotation to the word traitor. ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/14 "2003-10-11T22:11:00Z")
Ollie North? William Casey? Ronald Reagan? etc. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/15 "2003-10-12T04:06:36Z")
I tend to agree with Mr. Borgia. Klaus Fuchs did the most damage to the U.S. I don’t see where Arnold’s actions did that much damage to the country since his plans were nipped well in the bud. Also, Mr. Babbington, I find your portrayal of BA a bit one-dimensional. No doubt he was opportunistic, but he had been screwed royally by Congress, and his wife was also egging on his treason. And I think any discussion of treason should include Talleyrand’s remark: “Treason is merely a matter of dates.” ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/16 "2003-10-12T06:15:08Z")
And we note that poster **vl\_mungo** takes the cake for missing the target by the widest margin. Yes, the founding fathers were traitors to the Crown. Yeehahhh! ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/17 "2003-10-12T10:59:54Z")
The term “traitor” has very little weight as far as I’m concered. One can really only ever be a traitor to one’s self. If you truly believe in the cause of your nation’s enemy and you work to further that cause you will be considered a traitor. A true traitor, as I see it, would be someone who believes in the cause of her/his country but betrays that cause out of fear for personal safety or well-being, or for money, or because it becomes apparent that the rival will be victorious. The State will never apply such a subjective definition to the term. When, unprovoked, the United States in the interest of westward expansion attacked Mexico there were U.S. soldiers who defected and fought along the Mexicans. They were known as the San Patricios (St. Patrick’s) because they were mostly comprised of Irish-Americans, many of whom were recent immigrants. They were U.S. citizens and soldiers in the U.S. army but they recognized that their country was wrong and they chose to fight on the side that was right. When any of the San Patricios were caught by the U.S. they were hanged as traitors- and, yes, they WERE guilty of treason. But I think this example illustrates what little significance the term “traitor” holds in a broader moral spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/18 "2003-10-12T11:53:44Z")
I’m gonna second Aldrich Aimes’s nomination. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/19 "2003-10-12T15:02:43Z")
_Treason doth never prosper. What’s the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason._ - Sir John Harington (1561-1612) ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765/20 "2003-10-12T15:07:49Z")
George Washington, for depriving the good citizens of the US the joy of being British 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/traitors/206765.md?page=2)