# Trans Folks In The Military- I Need Help Countering Arguments- And Fast **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402 "2019-04-11T19:41:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/21 "2019-04-12T00:24:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, so you don’t think kicking out good people for no reason harms national security (and this was indeed part of my original argument, if you go back and read it). > > That seems incredibly, mind-blowingly obvious to me, but you’re free to disagree. We don’t need to go on and on about this. Well, it seems obvious to me that kicking out 5,000 people from the military, which contains about 2 million people, does NOT in fact affect National Security. If you think it does, prove it. Last time this topic came up, it got moved to the Pit where you weren’t required to prove anything. Now it’s still in Great Debates, so prove it, beyond “I say it harms National Security” Should be easy for you, if it’s so obvious. And again, all I’m saying is use other, better arguments than “Harms National Security”. Nothing more than that. Strange that you are so hung up on it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/22 "2019-04-12T00:28:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, it seems obvious to me that kicking out 5,000 people from the military, which contains about 2 million people, does NOT in fact affect National Security. If you think it does, prove it. Last time this topic came up, it got moved to the Pit where you weren’t required to prove anything. Now it’s still in Great Debates, so prove it, beyond “I say it harms National Security” > > Should be easy for you, if it’s so obvious. > > And again, all I’m saying is use other, better arguments than “Harms National Security”. Nothing more than that. Strange that you are so hung up on it. No thanks, this is just basic math and logic (2 million - 5000 is less than 2 million, for example), and I’m not interested in such a silly conversation (how would you quantify national security? This discussion is clearly entirely in the realm of opinion). You’re free to disagree – that’s okay. You’re still a fine person and a fine poster, even if you’re arguing against something so blatantly obvious. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/23 "2019-04-12T00:35:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No thanks, this is just basic math and logic (2 million - 5000 is less than 2 million, for example), and I’m not interested in such a silly conversation (how would you quantify national security? This discussion is clearly entirely in the realm of opinion). You’re free to disagree – that’s okay. You’re still a fine person and a fine poster, even if you’re arguing against something so blatantly obvious. 😉 Well now I’m offended 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/24 "2019-04-12T00:51:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, it seems obvious to me that kicking out 5,000 people from the military, which contains about 2 million people, does NOT in fact affect National Security. Wow, you really aren’t following his argument _at all_, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/25 "2019-04-12T00:53:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wow, you really aren’t following his argument _at all_, are you? Of course I am. And his argument is “It harms National Security” without offering any proof of that beyond “I say so” ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/26 "2019-04-12T01:02:15Z")
The “bad teeth” thing actually isn’t true per se, I think there is something in the regulations about not being able to join if your teeth are so bad you can’t eat or something like that. I was in basic and AIT with a guy who clearly had “meth mouth” when he joined, idk maybe he really liked Mountain Dew. His teeth were literally black and rotting out of his head. He was a good soldier, and he did what he was told and tried his best. By the time we graduated AIT he must have had $20,000 to $30,000 worth of dental work performed on him, maybe more and it was a long process. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/27 "2019-04-12T01:07:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Of course I am. And his argument is “It harms National Security” without offering any proof of that beyond “I say so” You’re really not. And is that standard you offer in your second sentence one you hold yourself to? You’ve never speculated on this board what you think a particular course of action might lead to? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/28 "2019-04-12T01:11:41Z")
During Obama’s second term, the Army was shrunk by several tens of thousands of soldiers - somewhere in the neighborhood of 70,000 soldiers. Even though that was a lot of soldiers to let go, I can’t really make a serious argument that our national security was harmed by it. Yes, it made life harder for all the remaining soldiers who had to pick up more slack for the units that were missing people… but I just can’t conclude that Americans were quantifiably less safer. So if several thousand transgender troops were kicked out of the service tomorrow, I just can’t get on board with one-tenth of the Obama-era troop cuts making us less safe. What I would say, though, is that it would make us a more prejudiced and bigoted nation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/29 "2019-04-12T01:14:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > During Obama’s second term, the Army was shrunk by several tens of thousands of soldiers - somewhere in the neighborhood of 70,000 soldiers. Even though that was a lot of soldiers to let go, I can’t really make a serious argument that our national security was harmed by it. Yes, it made life harder for all the remaining soldiers who had to pick up more slack for the units that were missing people… but I just can’t conclude that Americans were quantifiably less safer. > > So if several thousand transgender troops were kicked out of the service tomorrow, I just can’t get on board with one-tenth of the Obama-era troop cuts making us less safe. > > What I would say, though, is that it would make us a more prejudiced and bigoted nation. Those folks weren’t removed regardless of skills, experience, etc. And I’m not saying that suddenly we’re at risk of invasion. I’m saying this is an own goal, and own goals should be avoided, even if we’re leading 20 to 1. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/30 "2019-04-12T01:15:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And is that standard you offer in your second sentence one you hold yourself to? You’ve never speculated on this board what you think a particular course of action might lead to? Well, I was going with the standard of “Make a statement in Great Debates, back it up with facts” Something that I thought was standard around here. Perhaps I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/31 "2019-04-12T01:29:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those folks weren’t removed regardless of skills, experience, etc. And I’m not saying that suddenly we’re at risk of invasion. I’m saying this is an own goal, and own goals should be avoided, even if we’re leading 20 to 1. Actually the Chief of Staff of the Army at the time complained that good soldiers were being let go: “Unfortunately some people now are being let go that have done a very good job. … But with the downsizing we no longer can keep them.” Odierno said.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/32 "2019-04-12T01:45:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Actually the Chief of Staff of the Army at the time complained that good soldiers were being let go: > > “Unfortunately some people now are being let go that have done a very good job. … But with the downsizing we no longer can keep them.” Odierno said.” So you’re saying that it was his opinion that that decision may have done some harm to our national security? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/33 "2019-04-12T03:54:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it were about money for medical procedures, then the military could stipulate that it wouldn’t pay for certain procedures. Lots of trans people don’t need any more medical procedures than cis people. > > But it’s not about money for medical procedures – it’s about hatred of trans people. There are plenty of trans veterans who have no extra medical needs, and forcing them out of the military is weakening our military and our national security. Further, turning the military into an explicitly bigoted and hateful organization will greatly harm recruiting, since lots of young Americans have no interest in joining a hateful organization. > > It’s doing great harm to our national security, and benefiting no one but anti-trans bigots. > > I was in the Navy and there are plenty of other veterans who are against this bigoted policy. The military already has medical procedures they won’t perform or pay for. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/34 "2019-04-12T03:58:31Z")
> [@pool](#): > > The “bad teeth” thing actually isn’t true per se, I think there is something in the regulations about not being able to join if your teeth are so bad you can’t eat or something like that. I was in basic and AIT with a guy who clearly had “meth mouth” when he joined, idk maybe he really liked Mountain Dew. His teeth were literally black and rotting out of his head. He was a good soldier, and he did what he was told and tried his best. By the time we graduated AIT he must have had $20,000 to $30,000 worth of dental work performed on him, maybe more and it was a long process. Not bad teeth yet, but when I was in they would extract (angled at least) impacted wisdom teeth for those likely to be in submarines, because we don’t want to interrupt underwater deployments. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/35 "2019-04-12T04:09:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > To sum up- I support transgender people in the military. My friend does not. I already got him to concede that there is a biological basis for being trans. He countered with ‘The military won’t let you in with bad teeth. Why should it pay for therapy, hormones, and surgery?’ The US Military does let you in with bad teeth. If they didn’t, there’s whole socioeconomic swaths they wouldn’t be able to recruit from. I had a student, a US Army Lieutenant, who was one of the local ROTC teachers. He was the scion of two rich families: one Spanish, one American. Artsy, bohemian parents. He’d grown up between his parents’ 6B in Spain and his grandmother’s summer house in Cape Cod. How do you rebel against such a family? Join the miltary as an enlisted. And that’s where, after a lifetime of despising his Spanish classmates for their crooked teeth (he’d visited the dentist every six months, of course, and worn braces, of course) he found himself looking at visible caries and missing pieces. He was assigned an MOS of Dentist Assistant and saw 18yo mouths that would have been considered bad in a Spanish 81yo. He went to OCS when offered and was trying to become a dentist, with the intent to stay in the military so long as they would have him, to be able to serve those men and women who hadn’t even visited a dentist until the military paid for it. There’s a lot of medical conditions that you can have; the military doesn’t require perfect specimens. There are also many conditions which are not acceptable when you sign up but which will not get you automatically discharged if acquired while in service. That doesn’t indicate what to do about transgenderism, but “the military only accepts super-perfect folk” is not an argument for not accepting transgender soldiers (either those who already know it when they sign up, or those who figure it out later). ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/36 "2019-04-12T13:33:50Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > I saw on The View that the military spends over ten times the amount of money supplying troops with Viagra than it does spending on people with trans type stuff going on. I am trying to find the exact figure that they used. > > I mean if the Pentagon can cough up millions for boner pills, then whats the problem? Obviously its not the money that is the problem. I mean I’m not sure that swinging a thick rod has anything to do with foxholes and stuff like that. Viagra can also be used to treat pulmonary arterial hypertension. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/37 "2019-04-12T16:35:49Z")
Either keeping trans people out of the military or keeping non-trans people out of the military is fine with me. Whatever the military wants to do to limit the damage it can do is a good policy, even if it is mean-spirited. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/38 "2019-04-12T16:47:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Either keeping trans people out of the military or keeping non-trans people out of the military is fine with me. Did you feel the same way when Truman integrated the military? And as women were allowed to serve in combat positions? If there is any damage being done to our military (and I don’t think there is any), we can address the problem and move past it, like we’ve done several times in the past. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/39 "2019-04-12T17:22:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Either keeping trans people out of the military or keeping non-trans people out of the military is fine with me. Whatever the military wants to do to limit the damage it can do is a good policy, even if it is mean-spirited. That’s great, but in no way addresses the OP’s needs. Anyway, the military were fine with keeping them in, it was the president who wanted them out. Where does that leave you? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402/40 "2019-04-12T17:30:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Did you feel the same way when Truman integrated the military? And as women were allowed to serve in combat positions? If there is any damage being done to our military (and I don’t think there is any), we can address the problem and move past it, like we’ve done several times in the past. Whatever reason the military has for keeping people out is fine with me. Their reasoning could be mean-spirited, compassionate, tactical, whatever. I’m not up in arms about a policy to allow more people in, nor am I up in arms about letting them in. I would prefer they keep as many people out as possible. The less military personnel, the better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-folks-in-the-military-i-need-help-countering-arguments-and-fast/832402.md?page=3)