# Trans issues, or the politics of transsexuality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859 "2013-03-24T23:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/21 "2013-03-25T14:53:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m a good liberal (I think), and I have no problem supporting “gay issues” (also known as civil rights), in general. And I think I support “trans issues” too, whatever they may be. But the problem is that I don’t really understand what trans issues are… can anyone give me a basic rundown/primer of “trans issues”? How are they different than what are typically thought of as gay issues, or other civil rights issues? What should a modern person who doesn’t know much or understand much about transsexuals and transsexuality, but wants to, know? Not to be too much of a hijack or be too mean, but you support trans issues even though you don’t know what they are? That’s why I would never be a good liberal. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/22 "2013-03-25T15:12:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not to be too much of a hijack or be too mean, but you support trans issues even though you don’t know what they are? That’s why I would never be a good liberal. 🙂 You can believe in the reality of transgender/transsexualism and believe that those who experience it deserve to be respected and deserve the same rights as those who don’t without being fully aware of all the details of what they have to go through and what they experience at the hands of society. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/23 "2013-03-25T15:13:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not all “guys in drag” are transexuals in transition. Should both groups be allowed to use the women’s restroom? I used to be an volunteer/intern in an local cross dressing/transsexual group in the eighties. There were two kinds of members visiting the members only nights. (It was very kind of them to allow me to visit, as i was neither). For some, crossdressing it was partly, perhaps mostly, a sexual fetish. Maybe some gay issues were at play, as well. Those were the ones who came dressed outlandishly and sexily. Boa’s, glitter, false eylashes, lingerie, silk, the works. And then there were the trans folks. For them, their dressing up was about being accepted as their self-perceived gender. Their dressing up was subtle, “everyday normal”, aimed at fitting in. There was nothing sexual about it. One guy told me that when he dressed up as a woman, he would be most happy if he just sat down and read or did some chores in his home. The sexual fetish guys, I wouldn’t want to share a bathroom with except if we’re both out on a town night in a drag queen night club. But that whole question is moot, and even suggestive, because no sane person would flaunt such an obvious fetish in their workplace. So we really don’t need rules for guys in drag, and confusing that group with the trans people is not helping. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/24 "2013-03-25T15:24:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You can believe in the reality of transgender/transsexualism and believe that those who experience it deserve to be respected and deserve the same rights as those who don’t without being fully aware of all the details of what they have to go through and what they experience at the hands of society. Not necessarily. I might believe that a person born a man who thinks he is now a woman is allowed to not be discriminated against at his/her job. But then this person demands the right to use the women’s restroom. Maybe I think that’s too much. I wouldn’t make the statement that I fully support transgendered rights if I don’t know what it is they are asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/25 "2013-03-25T15:33:53Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not necessarily. I might believe that a person born a man who thinks he is now a woman is allowed to not be discriminated against at his/her job. But then this person demands the right to use the women’s restroom. Maybe I think that’s too much. I wouldn’t make the statement that I fully support transgendered rights if I don’t know what it is they are asking for. To be fair, there was a qualifier attached: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And \*\*I think \*\*I support “trans issues” too, whatever they may be. Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/26 "2013-03-25T15:45:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > To be fair, there was a qualifier attached: > > Bolding mine. That’s my point. How can you think you support Proposition X if you don’t know what in the hell Proposition X does? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/27 "2013-03-25T15:56:56Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > That’s my point. How can you think you support Proposition X if you don’t know what in the hell Proposition X does? Well that’s kind of why I started the thread- to learn. And (to answer your nit-picking) while I need to learn a lot about it, my very limited but non-zero knowledge steers me to the “support transsexuals” on the issues so far. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/28 "2013-03-25T15:58:26Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > As I said, there are right and wrong ways to transition. What exactly does it mean to “transition”? And what is an example of the right way to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/29 "2013-03-25T16:01:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not necessarily. I might believe that a person born a man who thinks he is now a woman is allowed to not be discriminated against at his/her job. But then this person demands the right to use the women’s restroom. Maybe I think that’s too much. I wouldn’t make the statement that I fully support transgendered rights if I don’t know what it is they are asking for. Why would restroom use be especially concerning? Do you spend a lot of time pondering the sexual orientation or masculinity/femininity of the people in the adjoining stall? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/30 "2013-03-25T16:07:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Well that’s kind of why I started the thread- to learn. And (to answer your nit-picking) while I need to learn a lot about it, my very limited but non-zero knowledge steers me to the “support transsexuals” on the issues so far. Fair enough. But what about the unintended consequences? Let’s say that I am a pervert who want to sit in the ladies’ restroom and watch the hot secretary primp her hair. Should I be protected under federal law by simply telling my boss that I think I might be a woman trapped in a man’s body? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/31 "2013-03-25T16:10:43Z")
The same way we deal with any other unintended consequences: worry about them when they materialize. Are you aware of any places where nothing but the declaration, “I think I might be transgender.” is sufficient to be classified as transgender? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/32 "2013-03-25T16:13:13Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Why would restroom use be especially concerning? Do you spend a lot of time pondering the sexual orientation or masculinity/femininity of the people in the adjoining stall? This is one of those things flogged by a lot of social conservatives, and it kinda parallels the “homosexuality is a choice” thing: “Well, OBVIOUSLY, a pedophile/rapist would be willing to face huge social stigma, therapy bills, and invasive hormonal and (potentially) surgical intervention to radically change their biology…for the privilege of walking unimpeded into the women’s restroom.” It doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense if you even stop for a second to think it through logically, and in point of fact not officially recognizing gender changes makes the proposed phenomena worse since there’s no universally applicable legal way to distinguish “MTF transgendered person, transitioned” from “guy who took a lot of disguise classes”. The fact that the latter (guy with good makeup/disguise sneaking into women’s restroom to sexually assault people/be a voyeur) is literally unheard of (especially compared to the number of men who would hide in a women’s restroom or plant a hidden camera or whatever, which DOES occur enough to hear about it) is enough to convince me that the whole thing is a made-up problem that exists solely to have something sexually criminal to pin to transgendered individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/33 "2013-03-25T16:16:42Z")
This is just another example of the pervasive social/religious conservative practice of attempting to conflate benign sexual transgressiveness (relative to their concept of the “correct” social rules) with sexual criminality. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/34 "2013-03-25T16:16:53Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Why would restroom use be especially concerning? Do you spend a lot of time pondering the sexual orientation or masculinity/femininity of the people in the adjoining stall? He could be one of those perverts… you know, the ones who go through MAJOR SURGERY and suffer the general scorn and disgust of 99% of people out there, all just to take a peek at the ladies when they’re powdering their nose. Why, it’s the scourge of our times! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/35 "2013-03-25T16:18:34Z")
God help us if they ever learn of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/36 "2013-03-25T16:22:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Not to be too much of a hijack or be too mean, but you support trans issues even though you don’t know what they are? That’s why I would never be a good liberal. 🙂 Is this how it works? Liberal: “If I don’t know the details, I assume I support those people having rights.” Conservative: “If I don’t know the details, I assume I oppose those people having rights.” I guess that’s why I would never be a good conservative. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/37 "2013-03-25T16:22:21Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Fair enough. But what about the unintended consequences? Let’s say that I am a pervert who want to sit in the ladies’ restroom and watch the hot secretary primp her hair. Should I be protected under federal law by simply telling my boss that I think I might be a woman trapped in a man’s body? Do you somehow imagine that that’s all it takes to have yourself officially declared “transgender”? Telling your boss that man, you feel like a woman? Do you know ANYTHING about the kind of (justified) rigmarole someone has to go through to even qualify to be prescribed a hormone regimen? It’s not something someone does on the spur of the moment just because they want to see some ladies peeing. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/38 "2013-03-25T16:23:13Z")
Lol, and 3 people had the same train of thought as me. There’s a reviewer on the Gamespot crew who is transgender. Her name is Carolyn Michelle. I enjoy her reviews, as they tend to be well thought out, well written, and very thorough. I may not always agree with her conclusions, but I always learn a lot about a game from her discussion of it. Of course, whenever she does a video review, 99.9% of the comments are hateful commentaries on her. No surprise, as the internet is essentially evil, but man, that’s got to be some soul breaking ordeal for her. I may not wholly understand the issues involved in being a transgender person, but I can absolutely empathize with their current treatment in society. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/39 "2013-03-25T16:24:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Is this how it works? > > Liberal: “If I don’t know the details, I assume I support those people having rights.” > Conservative: “If I don’t know the details, I assume I oppose those people having rights.” > > I guess that’s why I would never be a good conservative. +1 I prefer to err on the side of “What is not explicitly forbidden is allowed” rather than “What is not explicitly allowed is forbidden”. What’s that word…freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859/40 "2013-03-25T16:25:11Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > the whole thing is a made-up problem that exists solely to have something sexually criminal to pin to transgendered individuals. As with homosexuality, much of it boils down to “It makes me feel oogy to think about it, therefore those other people should be banned.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-issues-or-the-politics-of-transsexuality/653859.md?page=3)