# Trans people claiming that Drag Queens contribute to objectification & oppression of trans people.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 24, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015 "2015-07-24T00:50:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/21 "2015-07-24T16:02:31Z")
I find it a bit contrived to separate the two as if there aren’t many drag queens who come to identify as trans women; & a bit unfortunate as the move to deny drag queens experience real bigotry and oppression often ends up sounding a bit like respectability politics.
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### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/22 "2015-07-24T16:57:28Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> Feel free to run up your post counts with manufactured offense, especially those of you who are on record as being rather unsympathetic towards transgender people (ahem). It should have been clear to anyone who honestly cared about the issue that the objection was to the way in which the question in the OP was framed.
It wasn’t clear. You said we non-CD and non-TG have no say in the “battle”. It’s wrong, unless I can tell you that you shouldn’t concern yourself with “our” battles (whatever htey may be) cuz you’re not one of us. I mean, it’s, directly no skin off my nose the actual result of that specific topic, but what bothers me is the concept that “we” have no say.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/23 "2015-07-24T17:13:15Z")
> [@astorian](#):
>
> And us cisgender white males find this as hilarious as liberals must find the Donald Trump fiasco in the GOP.
>
> Drag Queens are now being condemned as oppressors, even as lesbians are being condemned for not wanting to sleep with “women” who have penises. I knew revolutions tend to devour their own, but this is ridiculous!
You do realize that as soon as you put “women” in scare quotes, you tipped your hand, right?
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> This kind of burlesque performance instead is intended to be humorous in playing against expectations. The humor is due to the incongruity of obvious males being dressed as females, and the less the guy looks like an actual woman the funnier it is.
I agree with this, like in a traditional British panto, where the cross-dressed person is typically an old man who is having ten different kinds of fun with the role.
> [@alexandra](#):
>
> I find it a bit contrived to separate the two as if there aren’t many drag queens who come to identify as trans women; & a bit unfortunate as the move to deny drag queens experience real bigotry and oppression often ends up sounding a bit like respectability politics.
Would you mind taking the time to compare the bigotry and oppression that drag queens experience, relative to transgender persons? Take all the time you need. Then could you explain why you equate a voluntary activity with one which is a fundamental sense of gender identity.
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> It wasn’t clear. You said we non-CD and non-TG have no say in the “battle”. It’s wrong, unless I can tell you that you shouldn’t concern yourself with “our” battles (whatever htey may be) cuz you’re not one of us. I mean, it’s, directly no skin off my nose the actual result of that specific topic, but what bothers me is the concept that “we” have no say.
That was overly harsh on my part, and I apologize.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/24 "2015-07-24T17:15:21Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#):
>
> I never thought of drag queens as mocking women, but more showing a kind of respect to woman.
I can see that with some performances.
I appreciate drag. I don’t find the humor funny but I do appreciate the artistry, and I’ve been moved to tears by a drag performer’s heartfelt singing performance.
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### Author:  [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/25 "2015-07-24T17:23:04Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> It wasn’t clear. You said we non-CD and non-TG have no say in the “battle”. It’s wrong, unless I can tell you that you shouldn’t concern yourself with “our” battles (whatever htey may be) cuz you’re not one of us. I mean, it’s, directly no skin off my nose the actual result of that specific topic, but what bothers me is the concept that “we” have no say.
But what is **Una** supposed to say? I’ve seen her be infinitely patient with people on these boards, explaining and re-explaining concepts a thousand times, occasionally to the same people. And yet they won’t understand. Just look above you. When she tried to use personal experience to highlight the differences, how much they hurt and what kind of damage they do, this was the immediate response…
> [@astorian](#):
>
> And us cisgender white males find this as hilarious as liberals must find the Donald Trump fiasco in the GOP.
>
> Drag Queens are now being condemned as oppressors, even as lesbians are being condemned for not wanting to sleep with “women” who have penises. I knew revolutions tend to devour their own, but this is ridiculous!
So, if someone can behave like that _immediately_, you don’t think the frustration ever gets to her and she just throws up her hands and says “Leave this kind of complicated stuff to the folks who actually live it!”??
I swear, after reading threads like this, I can 100% understand why **Eve** left. This is one “good fight” that, if I was transgendered, I wouldn’t have the heart to keep trying to best when faced with such an uphill climb in one instance, and willful ignorance in the other. Sheesh.
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### Author:  [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/26 "2015-07-24T17:26:46Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> Would you mind taking the time to compare the bigotry and oppression that drag queens experience, relative to transgender persons? Take all the time you need. Then could you explain why you equate a voluntary activity with one which is a fundamental sense of gender identity.
This. It reminds me of people who will swear up and down that someone isn’t _really_ that depressed because they themselves have felt a little blue before and weren’t suicidal. Just get over it.
If you don’t understand a concept is severe as you think, perhaps it’s because you’ve never really walked mile in the other person’s shoes.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/27 "2015-07-24T17:27:41Z")
**Una** , I think you’re coming off as a bit overly harsh throughout this thread. I’m sure you’ve explained this many times, but most people reading this thread are going to be hearing about this issue for the first time (as I am). Your “hey, not your business” attitude is certainly offputting to those of us who make an effort to be sensitive to LGBT issues, and even if some of the posters in this thread aren’t making (or don’t make) that effort I think it’s unfair to assume it of others.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/28 "2015-07-24T17:36:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> **Una** , I think you’re coming off as a bit overly harsh throughout this thread. I’m sure you’ve explained this many times, but most people reading this thread are going to be hearing about this issue for the first time (as I am). Your “hey, not your business” attitude is certainly offputting to those of us who make an effort to be sensitive to LGBT issues, and even if some of the posters in this thread aren’t making (or don’t make) that effort I think it’s unfair to assume it of others.
I’ve apologized twice in this thread. That’s twice more than most people do on this message board in any thread where there is an argument or attitude taken by someone.
If it does no good to apologize, then I don’t know what else to add at this point.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/29 "2015-07-24T17:53:24Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> “Tranny” is offensive because it’s often one of the last things a transperson hears before they are beaten unconscious, like my friend M. “Shemale” is offensive because it’s what people yell out at us after we’ve come out of a nice restaurant and had a great evening, like happened to two friends of mine last Friday. “Fucking tranny” is what the manager at JC Penney’s calls another friend when she is thrown out of the women’s changing room, despite being post-op and legally female, while other women stare at her and whisper. “Goddamn shemale” is what my friend S. was called when she was out at a sports bar watching the Royals and having a beer and two frat-boy-types came up to her and demanded a blowjob from her. Both names are what the drunks following us will catcall me and the terrified transwoman I’m escorting out of a nightclub with my CCW purse unzipped and me desperately hoping that things do not go really black and scaly for everyone involved.
>
> Speaking to an imaginary crowd here, if all those cisgender folks out there think we shouldn’t be offended by tranny and shemale, _then stop using them to offend._
I agree. Once you say you are offended by those terms we should stop using them. That’s all I need to know. I dont even need to know your justification, just that you personally , are offended by those terms. Absolutely. I no longer do. \*Perhaps you could reciprocate? \*
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/30 "2015-07-24T17:54:12Z")
> [@faithfool](#):
>
> This. It reminds me of people who will swear up and down that someone isn’t _really_ that depressed because they themselves have felt a little blue before and weren’t suicidal. Just get over it.
A basic problem is there seems to be an overall equating of a voluntary performance art activity with a fundamental gender identity and expression evinced by persons who may very well be classified as a milder form of intersex, given the trends of brain functional MRI studies.
I’m transgender activist 24/7. My weekend plans? Help a transgender person who is out of work, do my radio show on trans advocacy, attend a private transgender party to see if I can have some fun and help folks out, continue trying to set up my 501c(3), check on a once-homeless transwoman I paid for housing for, and research an article on transgender legal status of employee benefits. Unlike the vast majority of transgender persons who (rightfully) just want to quietly live their lives and submerge into living and loving and just being happy, I chose not to do that. Every day of the week I’m working in this area, it’s not a hobby for me, and so yes I take it seriously. It’s easy for someone to think “jeeze, why are you getting so upset about this?” when they aren’t out there facing what I’m facing. So I use my examples to try to give some light as to why I am “always on” when this topic comes up.
Sometimes I regret that choice. No one who meets me in a social or professional context knows I’m trans until I tell them. I could have gone stealth had I wanted to. Sometimes, like right this minute, I’m very, very tired. But I get knocked down, and I get up again, like in that stupid song.
As far as the slurs, I really do understand why most non-transgender persons can shrug their shoulders at them or wonder “what’s the big deal.” If someone walks up to be and calls me a “fucking nigger,” I’m going to look around, be pretty damn confused, and then wonder who the asshole is talking to. What I’m not going to experience is the visceral impact to the gut, the mix of fear and demoralization, and the feeling like all the wind has been taken out of my sails that a person of color will have.
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### Author:  [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/31 "2015-07-24T17:59:46Z")
> [@faithfool](#):
>
> I swear, after reading threads like this, I can 100% understand why **Eve** left. This is one “good fight” that, if I was transgendered, I wouldn’t have the heart to keep trying to best when faced with such an uphill climb in one instance, and willful ignorance in the other. Sheesh.
Yes, a hundred times this. The willful ignorance and utter lack of empathy is difficult for a loved one of a trans girl to take.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/32 "2015-07-24T18:02:07Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> I’ve apologized twice in this thread.
So you did. I take back my comment.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/33 "2015-07-24T18:35:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> I agree. Once you say you are offended by those terms we should stop using them. That’s all I need to know. I dont even need to know your justification, just that you personally , are offended by those terms. Absolutely. I no longer do. \*Perhaps you could reciprocate? \*
Are you seriously trying to compare the use of the word “cisgender” to the experiences **Una** just described?
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### Author:  [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/34 "2015-07-24T18:38:27Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Are you seriously trying to compare the use of the word “cisgender” to the experiences **Una** just described?
Why, yes, he is. Astonishing, isn’t it?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/35 "2015-07-24T18:46:06Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Are you seriously trying to compare the use of the word “cisgender” to the experiences **Una** just described?
Indeed, just the opposite. “Once you say you are offended by those terms we should stop using them. That’s all I need to know.\* I dont even need to know your justification, just that you personally , are offended by those terms.\* Absolutely. I no longer do.”
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/36 "2015-07-24T19:44:43Z")
> [@astorian](#):
>
> And us cisgender white males find this as hilarious as liberals must find the Donald Trump fiasco in the GOP.
What a stupid fucking comment. I mean, really.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/37 "2015-07-24T19:47:08Z")
Well, **Richard** , as a cisgender white male (I thin), how \*does \*the trans/drag divide compare with Trump leading the GOP primaries, humor-wise?
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### Author:  [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/38 "2015-07-24T19:50:04Z")
Well, **Una** , I appreciate what you do and how much you fight to educate. I can’t imagine how incredibly difficult a battle that must be at times, but I just wanted you to know that you’ve positively effected me and I’ve learned more about transgender issues via your teaching than I ever would’ve done without them. And I seriously doubt I’m the only one. You are a testament to those you try to help and a treasure to this community. Thank you for all you do and I hope this issue finds a happy and peaceful resolution.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/39 "2015-07-24T19:51:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Well, **Richard** , as a cisgender white male (I thin), how \*does \*the trans/drag divide compare with Trump leading the GOP primaries, humor-wise?
There are so many things to love about the comment, but the thing I like most is the idea that (white?) cisgender is to transgender as liberals are to the GOP. A lovely idea, isn’t it?
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 24, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/40 "2015-07-24T19:55:25Z")
> [@Emiliana](#):
>
> Why, yes, he is. Astonishing, isn’t it?
How would you have it? "Once you say you are offended by those terms we should stop using them. That’s all I need to know. I don’t even need to know your justification, just that you personally , are offended by those terms. "
Or- “_prove_ by horror stories that the term has been used in such a way we should find it offensive- we’re not going to take your word for it, we need evidence.”
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