# Trans people claiming that Drag Queens contribute to objectification & oppression of trans people.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 24, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015 "2015-07-24T00:50:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/61 "2015-07-26T05:05:13Z")
Is anyone else remembering SNL’s “Pat”?
I have encountered a person who actually did get asked (her) sex.
Even the shoulder/hip width test was useless.
she wore men’s shirts (gas station pump jockey) and jeans, so the “which way does the top button?” didn’t work.
Short of handing them a book and seeing how they carry it, legitimate questions can exist.
---
### Author:  [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/62 "2015-07-26T11:18:26Z")
Seems to me to be like feminist criticism of transgered.
Academically interesting and theoretically valid but in the real world a stupid and counterproductive waste of time when there are much much much bigger battles to fight.
---
### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/63 "2015-07-26T12:51:11Z")
> [@usedtobe](#):
>
> Is anyone else remembering SNL’s “Pat”?
>
> I have encountered a person who actually did get asked (her) sex.
> Even the shoulder/hip width test was useless.
> she wore men’s shirts (gas station pump jockey) and jeans, so the “which way does the top button?” didn’t work.
>
> Short of handing them a book and seeing how they carry it, legitimate questions can exist.
What would the reason be for those legitimate questions? “I don’t know how to treat you if I don’t know whether you’re male or female”?
---
### Author:  [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/64 "2015-07-26T15:11:52Z")
> [@Emiliana](#):
>
> AnaMan, I’m guessing that you “read” as female no matter what you are wearing or doing. You probably don’t have broad shoulders, big hands, or a male facial structure. You don’t need stereotypically feminine clothing or accessories to present and be read as female. The same is often not the case for trans women who went through male puberty. Hence the exaggerated stereotypical femininity of clothing, hair, nails, etc.
>
> Should trans women have to do all this to be perceived as women? Of course not, in a better world than we are living in at the moment.
>
> Younger trans women, especially those who bypassed male puberty entirely or partially, tend not to dress in a hyper-feminized fashion. They pass (dreadful word but the one in use) just fine no matter what they are wearing and so they have the freedom to dress as they please.
That’s a really good explanation.
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> By putting on the make up and heels, they are reinforcing that THAT is the gender-conforming behavior that makes someone a woman at the moment, which is bad for people like me, who think that behavior is making women as a whole worse off.
>
> But whatever, it’s their choice to wear that stuff and their right to do so, regardless of how it contributes to the marginalization of women, just as drag queens get to do their thing and the rest of us have to suck it up and deal with the repercussions.
I sort of agree, because this is how I feel sometimes. In the lesbian community (of which I am part) there seems, to me, to be too strong a trend towards saying that if you don’t like make-up and heels, etc, even now and then, then you’re not just a woman who doesn’t like make-up and heels, you’re trans. I reject that. Being trans is a lot deeper than that. Men can wear make-up and women can eschew heels; those are just clothes, not the person.
But you have to take into account what Emiliana said above. If you were a woman who looked very much like a man, and had in fact gone through male puberty, wouldn’t you have to make extra efforts if you wanted people to recognise that you were female?
For you it’s not important that people recognise that you’re female, but for a lot of people it is, and it depends on the context. Online, people usually assume I’m male (and straight), but that doesn’t bother me because the only things it affects are occasional discussions and they can easily be corrected. If I were constantly called Mr in real life, or told I was in the wrong changing room at swimming, etc, then it could be more of a problem. Especially if they didn’t talk me to directly but called in the staff to make me leave.
And these days a lot of cis women do dress in ways that are indistinguishable from men. I do in the winter (summer not so much - dresses are more practical). So dressing as an ordinary woman can, for some transwomen who’ve gone through puberty and out the other side before transitioning, would, if they dressed like ordinary women, just make people assume they were a man.
Some trans people I know do dress very gender-neutral, actually, even the older ones. Especially when just with friends or when they’ve been out for a long time. It’s the initial phase where you dress more in high heels and so on in all circumstances; after that it’s more where you encounter a lot of strangers, like in many jobs, and otherwise you do like most women and put on a bit of lipstick (if that) and choose a top that has no sleeves and a pretty flower design, nothing elaborate.
The trans people you notice are more likely to be the people who transitioned later so are signifying their gender via their clothes because their bodies won’t do it for them. You probably see them on your commute or something because office attire is very gender-conformative. You are less likely to notice the others, or in other situations, and there are lots of them.
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/65 "2015-07-26T17:35:57Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> Women are harassed for their appearance all the time. Do they want to be treated like women or not?
You are seriously missing the point, despite many trying to explain it to you.
Transgender women are trying to “pass” out of survival. If we don’t “pass” into the other side of the gender binary, we risk losing our jobs, being harassed daily in public, having the stares and snickers and people stopping and gaping with their mouth open like a bloody basking shark. We risk the taunting, the jokes, the insults, the thrown food, and if we go to the restroom we risk causing a scene and being insulted, evicted from the premises, and in many jurisdictions arrested for “disturbing the peace.” Where the transgender person may end up finding themselves in full female presentation, in a shared male holding cell. EVEN IF they have all fully legal IDs and a vagina. Don’t think it doesn’t happen.
**Passing is life** , at this point in society.
Times when a butch woman faces that panoply of threats are vanishingly rare. It happens, but it’s rare.
Most transgender women would be very happy to dress androgynously in blue jeans, flats, and a polo shirt without makeup. And when our society gets to the point where one can be androgynous 24/7 and not be forced to exist on one side of the gender binary, then a lot of folks will be very happy.
I can testify that my career probably would have been lost if I had chosen to present androgynously. My clientele, while they were very supporting of my transition (amazingly so, in fact) are also socially conservative enough such that appearing as a butch woman or (worse) feminine man would have resulted in a much, much poorer reaction with my clients and co-workers. I almost certainly would have lost my career, or else been relegated to a position where I did not work with clients again - in effect, a demotion.
The world isn’t fair, it’s an oblate spheroid.
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/66 "2015-07-26T17:39:03Z")
> [@BrianJ](#):
>
> So… what, 97% of the people on the planet, some 7 billion people, all called you tranny and were rude to you? Really?
>
> I’ve never used the term personally, and have never in my life been rude to a transgender or any other LBGT person, but hey, go right ahead and tar me with that brush anyway, right?
The point, it has been missed.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/67 "2015-07-26T18:48:49Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> You are seriously missing the point, despite many trying to explain it to you.
>
> Transgender women are trying to “pass” out of survival. If we don’t “pass” into the other side of the gender binary, we risk losing our jobs, being harassed daily in public, having the stares and snickers and people stopping and gaping with their mouth open like a bloody basking shark. We risk the taunting, the jokes, the insults, the thrown food, and if we go to the restroom we risk causing a scene and being insulted, evicted from the premises, and in many jurisdictions arrested for “disturbing the peace.” Where the transgender person may end up finding themselves in full female presentation, in a shared male holding cell. EVEN IF they have all fully legal IDs and a vagina. Don’t think it doesn’t happen.
>
> **Passing is life** , at this point in society.
>
> Times when a butch woman faces that panoply of threats are vanishingly rare. It happens, but it’s rare.
>
> Most transgender women would be very happy to dress androgynously in blue jeans, flats, and a polo shirt without makeup. And when our society gets to the point where one can be androgynous 24/7 and not be forced to exist on one side of the gender binary, then a lot of folks will be very happy.
>
> I can testify that my career probably would have been lost if I had chosen to present androgynously. My clientele, while they were very supporting of my transition (amazingly so, in fact) are also socially conservative enough such that appearing as a butch woman or (worse) feminine man would have resulted in a much, much poorer reaction with my clients and co-workers. I almost certainly would have lost my career, or else been relegated to a position where I did not work with clients again - in effect, a demotion.
>
> The world isn’t fair, it’s an oblate spheroid.
I’m not missing any point; I am making a different point.
---
### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/68 "2015-07-26T21:26:32Z")
> [@astro](#):
>
> [This article](http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/06/25/3449462/drag-queens-trans-women/) synopsizes the issues that some trans people have with Drag Queens. Some object that the language of drag is contemptuous and objectifying as below -
>
> but the main issue per the articles and quotes below seems to be that drag performers make (usually) no claims to being inherently female and the drag performance potentially confuses people and devalues their reality as trans people into being some kind of gender minstrels vs being actual trans-women and trans-men regardless of sexual equipment.
>
> Does this argument have merit or not? Should trans people be getting up into Drag Queen’s grills on this issue? Drag Queens at Stonewall and elsewhere often led the way on a lot of gay progress over the last several decades. Do trans people have any purchase to call them out?
When I was in college, one of the main events on the fall social calendar each year was the drag show put on by the Society of Women Engineers. I never attended, but many of my friends and classmates did. No doubt many thought they were being progressive and hip, showing off their high level of tolerance and respect for diversity by doing so.
Then, in the blink of an eye, the exact same sort of event has become “contemptuous” and “devaluing” and “objectifying” and so forth. That’s one of the reasons why I no longer bother trying to obey the dictates of the liberal elite any more. They change so often that I can’t keep up with it. What’s progressive on Monday is oppressive on Tuesday, and who knows whether it will be good or bad on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.
That said, while I don’t agree with everything **AnaMen** has said, I do agree with this:
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> But should they stop, hide, or go away? No, because it is no more trans people’s business to impose their will upon drag queens than it is mine to request that women quit wearing makeup and heels because I feel it’s dragging down my gender. We each have the right to dress and identify ourselves however we want, and if exercising that right has an indirect negative effect on how others view a group, so be it. It isn’t each person’s responsibility to modify their own look or career to control public perception of trans people, women, etc.
>
> Tolerance means accepting people doing things you may prefer they not do.
I couldn’t have said it any better myself.
---
### Author:  [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/69 "2015-07-26T21:55:43Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> Women are harassed for their appearance all the time. Do they want to be treated like women or not?
I am a woman, and while I may upon occasion get harassed, it’s generally not the type of potential violence that a non-passing transwoman faces. So, not quite the same.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/70 "2015-07-26T22:46:32Z")
> [@raventhief](#):
>
> I am a woman, and while I may upon occasion get harassed, it’s generally not the type of potential violence that a non-passing transwoman faces. So, not quite the same.
Yeah, violence towards women, that’s not a thing. :rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/71 "2015-07-26T23:22:18Z")
Not even remotely close to what she said.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/72 "2015-07-26T23:33:23Z")
We all face “potential violence” of all “types.”
Who could possibly be exempt?
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/73 "2015-07-27T03:43:13Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> We all face “potential violence” of all “types.”
>
> Who could possibly be exempt?
Are you pretending to be unaware of the difference in violence victimization rates between transgender and cisgender women, or are you actually ignorant of the difference in rates?
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/74 "2015-07-27T04:07:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> When I was in college, one of the main events on the fall social calendar each year was the drag show put on by the Society of Women Engineers. I never attended, but many of my friends and classmates did. No doubt many thought they were being progressive and hip, showing off their high level of tolerance and respect for diversity by doing so.
No doubt college students of the 1920’s who did blackface shows thought they were being ever-so progressive, you know honoring all those Pullman porters, gas pumpers, cooks, maids, and shoeshine boys they encountered everyday.
It doesn’t mean that your third-hand account of an SWE event you never actually attended had bad intentions at all. It means times changed, and the current SWE (of which I happen to be a member, BTW) changed as well.
> [@](#):
>
> Then, in the blink of an eye,
I say, it hasn’t seemed like that to my people, who only in the last 5 years of the last 63 years since Jorgensen’s secret was leaked to the press have started to make any headway on human rights. So it’s not quite a blink of an eye, unless your name is Methuselah or Elrond.
> [@](#):
>
> That’s one of the reasons why I no longer bother trying to obey the dictates of the liberal elite any more. They change so often that I can’t keep up with it.
I know! Just like this whole Netflix thing. And when did phones become “smart,” anyhow? And self-parking cars? Holy shit, what’s up with that?
Yes, there’s a Liberal Cabal who dictate these things to you. I myself am running for **Trans Archbishop** (Midwest Archdiocese) this fall, and I hope that I can count on your vote…?
> [@](#):
>
> What’s progressive on Monday is oppressive on Tuesday, and who knows whether it will be good or bad on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.
Yes, it’s exactly like that.
---
### Author:  [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/75 "2015-07-27T04:19:42Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> We all face “potential violence” of all “types.”
>
> Who could possibly be exempt?
So, ever gotten your ass beaten down for not looking _quite_ womanly enough? I mean, we all face that sort of thing every day, right? I never have, but I could find some transwomen easily enough who have. Una, I am sure, knows a sorrowful number of transwomen who didn’t pass well enough.
---
### Author:  [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/76 "2015-07-27T04:22:28Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> Yes, there’s a Liberal Cabal who dictate these things to you. I myself am running for **Trans Archbishop** (Midwest Archdiocese) this fall, and I hope that I can count on your vote…?
Una, you have my vote, Your Transgender Grace.
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/77 "2015-07-27T08:12:25Z")
I don’t get drag. I have seen it once or twice, and asked my (gay) friends what the point was. I still don’t get it. I didn’t find it especially offensive as a woman, though.
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> …I don’t get that. We’re not natural allies. Drag queens are actors. Your example of blacks and Jews uses two groups who are not actors.
I’m not sure. Yes, they are actors. But most are also gay men. Despite not “getting” drag (in that I don’t find it funny), I think it is an expression of gender non-conformity that people want to engage in because they don’t neatly fit the gender binary. It’s just a different place on the spectrum than transwomen.
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> …when drag’s “emperor” [went around saying shit like “(the difference between a drag queen and a transsexual) is ‘About twenty-five thousand dollars and a good surgeon,’ ”](http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2013/01/why-i-cant-stand-rupaul.html), it certainly didn’t help the divide. When transgender people are killing themselves out of desperation because they’ve tried for years or decades and cannot afford surgery, RuPaul’s mockery falls just a bit flat, you know? RuPaul has changed his spots somewhat of late, driven mainly by declining ratings and being shut out of certain venues and losing his “cultural relevance”, but we remember…
yes, this is definitely confusing to cis people who aren’t close to the trans community. Drag queens on “sex in the city” calling themselves “tranny” doesn’t help anyone understand why the term can be offensive and hurtful, either.
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#):
>
> …
> As for \*\*Una Persson’s \*\*objections that drag performers and their shows give ammunition to the stupid, that doesn’t seem to me to be a valid criticism, nor does it invalidate **Miller** ’s post about those slurs and where they originated. Unfortunately those slurs cover a lot of territory, territory that includes some trans people, plus a lot of other people. I would love it if those slurs would go away (and all the other slurs that other groups have self-adopted, I don’t like any of them); I would love it if stupid hateful people would change. However, I don’t think drag shows are a legitimate target, even the ones that are not heartfelt and beautiful.
I have seen non-haters confused by drag, and specifically not understanding how it differs from being transgender. And I have seen haters use drag as ammunition. But I think that drag, like other expressions of gender-non-conformity, is valid in itself. I think we can keep a space for it. And haters gonna hate. They will find another excuse. Educating the non-haters takes time, but I think a lot of progress has been made and more will be made.
> [@raventhief](#):
>
> So, ever gotten your ass beaten down for not looking _quite_ womanly enough? I mean, we all face that sort of thing every day, right? I never have, but I could find some transwomen easily enough who have. Una, I am sure, knows a sorrowful number of transwomen who didn’t pass well enough.
Literally? No. But I am a woman who has been accused of not being “feminine enough”, (despite a feminine body shape) and I’ve had several unpleasant incidents as a result, including one that threatened serous violence.
---
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/78 "2015-07-27T08:17:27Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> The point, it has been missed.
The first time I read your post, I misread it that way, too. When I quoted it to reply, I read it more carefully, and realized you didn’t mean to include me, or other people who don’t use “tranny” to offend. But I was a little upset the first time I read it, too.
---
### Author:  [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/79 "2015-07-27T13:39:44Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> We all face “potential violence” of all “types.”
>
> Who could possibly be exempt?
You are completely missing the point. And it’s not a hard point to grasp.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/80 "2015-07-27T14:27:48Z")
> [@raventhief](#):
>
> So, ever gotten your ass beaten down for not looking _quite_ womanly enough? I mean, we all face that sort of thing every day, right? I never have, but I could find some transwomen easily enough who have. Una, I am sure, knows a sorrowful number of transwomen who didn’t pass well enough.
When you are being brutally attacked, does the “reason” matter? Is it usually given?
Women are attacked at a high enough rate that we are told to avoid dressing in certain ways in order to “stay safe” and are cautioned against going anywhere alone. If we are attacked, we are blamed, for wearing the wrong thing or being in the wrong place.
The “logic” that trans women are being attacked because they didn’t wear enough lipstick to “pass” makes no sense anyway. If being attacked is such a huge concern, wear a sweatshirt, jeans, and sneakers and “pass” as a man, an option not open to most women.
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