# Trans people claiming that Drag Queens contribute to objectification & oppression of trans people.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [July 24, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015 "2015-07-24T00:50:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/101 "2015-07-27T22:51:20Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> Using the fact that members of a group TYPICALLY do or wear certain things that are not essential for group membership is harmful stereotyping.
Wow, you’re actually defending your silly statement.
> [@](#):
>
> There is no actual reliable and useful connection between dress-wearing and being female.
In the context of gender expression, which I qualified previously, yes there is. I’m not going to argue with you over whether water is wet.
“Super Trans?” Wow, I just… :smack:
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/102 "2015-07-27T22:54:33Z")
> [@PookahMacPhellimey](#):
>
> What I’m wondering is if is really all that much for a choice for all drag queens, though? I think often men who wear women’s clothing have quite a strong compulsion to do so. Many are ashamed, afraid to tell, have had ruin relationships etc. I would question how much of it really is choice. Perhaps some drag queens are really only performers or actors, but I would think (and I am NO expect, so if I’m wrong then I’m wrong) that many people do drag shows because they really _need_ to express that side of themselves. It seems to be a kind of oppression to deny them that.
>
> (See for example this [Cracked Article](http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1646-7-things-you-learn-as-straight-guy-whos-crossdresser_p2.html) in which the author in point 2 also addresses some of the issues raised in this thread)
Undeniably some drag performers are transgender, I am good friends with some, and some may feel very strongly about their gender presentation. I think it would be interesting to compare the sort of performances that transgender drag performers do with those who are cisgender - that is to compare the level of self-referential humor, community humor, etc. I have not had the opportunity to do that study, nor do I know of anyone who has (yet).
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/103 "2015-07-27T22:54:52Z")
I guess that explains the cape…
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/104 "2015-07-27T23:50:16Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> First off, putting a fact on record in scare quotes is strange.
>
> Second, once you used the words “trans thought police,” you’ve pretty much revealed your agenda again. At least I’m honest about my agenda.
> I’m not doing legwork for someone who is playing word games.
I quoted you and placed quotation marks around the words I quoted, as per normal punctuation convention. Why do you think they are “scare quotes” (I did it again right there, don’t be scared)?
My agenda is no secret: I care deeply about individual rights–your right to be trans, my right to be shirtless, everyone’s right to live their own life as they see fit. I have no special place in my heart for any particular gender or race. I value reason, rational thought and behavior, and practicality. I guess you think this must be anti-trans somehow, but not feeling that a particular group should be legally favored or receive institutional special privileges does not mean that I oppose that group, but that I want everyone to be treated fairly and equally.
Your view is understandably skewed on this topic, as you have chosen to be a champion of trans issues. You are not even trying to look at these issues objectively or willing to recognize that as a trans activist you get a non-representative view of the world, perhaps similar to a police officer who sees the worst of humanity every day and starts to think people are even worse than they actually are.
I haven’t asked you to do any “legwork” (those are just normal quotation marks again, no need for fear) for me. You accused me of being either ignorant of or feigning ignorance of the answer to that question, but it turns out you don’t actually have the answer either and probably nobody does, as the data is not being collected very well. You can’t just decide it’s what best advances your agenda and scoff at my so-called ignorance for not bowing to your unsupported claim, however.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/105 "2015-07-27T23:54:01Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> Wow, you’re actually defending your silly statement.
> In the context of gender expression, which I qualified previously, yes there is. I’m not going to argue with you over whether water is wet.
>
> “Super Trans?” Wow, I just… :smack:
“Gender expression” is crap pushed on individuals. There are not girl toys, girl colors, girl professions, girl clothes, or girl hobbies. There is nothing to argue about here.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/106 "2015-07-28T00:07:14Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> I quoted you and placed quotation marks around the words I quoted, as per normal punctuation convention. Why do you think they are “scare quotes” (I did it again right there, don’t be scared)?
Because under normal punctuation conventions, using quote marks around a single word or short phrase indicates sarcasm, not a direct quote.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/107 "2015-07-28T00:14:22Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Because under normal punctuation conventions, using quote marks around a single word or short phrase indicates sarcasm, not a direct quote.
I disagree. Under your scheme, what marks are used to indicate a direct quote of a short phrase?
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/108 "2015-07-28T00:38:37Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> I disagree.
Disagree all you want, that’s still how it works.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/109 "2015-07-28T00:44:56Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Disagree all you want, that’s still how it works.
It isn’t.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/110 "2015-07-28T00:47:08Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> It isn’t.
Enjoy your future career in being misunderstood in print, then.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/111 "2015-07-28T00:58:03Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Enjoy your future career in being misunderstood in print, then.
Enjoy misunderstanding stuff because you ignore contextual clues and make up your own rules.
---
### Author:  [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/112 "2015-07-28T01:12:04Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Because under normal punctuation conventions, using quote marks around a single word or short phrase indicates sarcasm, not a direct quote.
What is “normal” in your world is not “normal” in mine. I like it that way.
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/113 "2015-07-28T01:30:50Z")
> [@usedtobe](#):
>
> What is “normal” in your world is not “normal” in mine. I like it that way.
Since you’re using quote marks in exactly the way I just described, it would indeed appear that normal is the same in both of our worlds.
---
### Author:  [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/114 "2015-07-28T02:47:33Z")
Doesn’t the breeze get drafty after a while?
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/115 "2015-07-28T03:34:41Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> Most transgender women would be very happy to dress androgynously in blue jeans, flats, and a polo shirt without makeup. And when our society gets to the point where one can be androgynous 24/7 and not be forced to exist on one side of the gender binary, then a lot of folks will be very happy.
>
> I can testify that my career probably would have been lost if I had chosen to present androgynously. My clientele, while they were very supporting of my transition (amazingly so, in fact) are also socially conservative enough such that appearing as a butch woman or (worse) feminine man would have resulted in a much, much poorer reaction with my clients and co-workers. I almost certainly would have lost my career, or else been relegated to a position where I did not work with clients again - in effect, a demotion.
But why would wearing jeans and a polo shirt and no makeup make someone look more androgynous than wearing a dress/heels? If they’re trans but look more masculine, wouldn’t they stick out more wearing heels and a dress than wearing something less obviously feminine, like jeans/t shirt?
---
### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/116 "2015-07-28T08:50:25Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I guess that explains the cape…
[Edna Mole]
NO CAPES!
[/EM]
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/117 "2015-07-28T11:35:55Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> I’m sure most women who wear make up and heels do not do so to assert their second-class status, but because they want to. The negative repercussions are an unintentional side effect.
When I wore dresses and heels to work it was because _I was paid to do so_ - it was part of the company dress code. The only reason I got away with no makeup was because of medical recommendation not to wear it from a board-certified dermatologist. I didn’t wear all that because I wanted to, I did it because it was part of the job, and part of fitting into society. I am far from the only woman to feel that way.
I know it’s mind-blowing to many young women today, but that was the rules not all that long ago. Women were not permitted to wear pants/trousers to work to many jobs. Period.
Also, until recently, it was near impossible for transwomen to get medical transition from the medical profession unless they went 100% full fem 24/7. So even if a workplace permitted androgynous clothing a transwoman might still be denied medical care if her attire wasn’t deemed feminine enough.
Thank goodness that’s changing in so many ways for the better. Even so, I think transwomen are still under pressure to present themselves as more feminine than ciswomen.
---
### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/118 "2015-07-28T12:06:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> When I wore dresses and heels to work it was because _I was paid to do so_ - it was part of the company dress code. The only reason I got away with no makeup was because of medical recommendation not to wear it from a board-certified dermatologist. I didn’t wear all that because I wanted to, I did it because it was part of the job, and part of fitting into society. I am far from the only woman to feel that way.
>
> I know it’s mind-blowing to many young women today, but that was the rules not all that long ago. Women were not permitted to wear pants/trousers to work to many jobs. Period.
>
> Also, until recently, it was near impossible for transwomen to get medical transition from the medical profession unless they went 100% full fem 24/7. So even if a workplace permitted androgynous clothing a transwoman might still be denied medical care if her attire wasn’t deemed feminine enough.
>
> Thank goodness that’s changing in so many ways for the better. Even so, I think transwomen are still under pressure to present themselves as more feminine than ciswomen.
Yes, you are far from the _only_ woman to have felt this way, but probably still in the minority by quite a bit. Look at all the female makeup-lovers on the no makeup thread.
I too remember those enraging dress codes. I don’t know what they are now, but in the '80s and '90s, my mother was literally required to wear makeup, pantyhose, and heels for her corporate job. It even spelled out the heel height minimum–an inch and a half, if I recall correctly.
I understand why trans women feel the need to provide visual cues like dresses and makeup, but that doesn’t mean I have to like that we live in a society where that is seen as necessary or that I must ignore that participation does contribute to things staying this way. It isn’t up to trans women to change it or even to stop contributing to the problem any more than it is up to any women. Together we could change it, but the sad truth is that most of us don’t even want to.
---
### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/119 "2015-07-28T12:34:16Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> But why would wearing jeans and a polo shirt and no makeup make someone look more androgynous than wearing a dress/heels? If they’re trans but look more masculine, wouldn’t they stick out more wearing heels and a dress than wearing something less obviously feminine, like jeans/t shirt?
The whole point of the hijack is swirling around whether or not trans people should need to pass as the gender they believe themselves to be, both to be perceived and treated as that gender and also to not get assaulted by the dad of the 7-year-old girl who just walked into the women’s restroom who sees the transwoman following his daughter as a dude in flats, polo shirt and a little makeup.
> [@Gyrate](#):
>
> [Edna Mole]
Mode.
---
### Author:  [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015/120 "2015-07-28T12:36:28Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> Mode.
:smack:
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015.md?page=5)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trans-people-claiming-that-drag-queens-contribute-to-objectification-oppression-of-trans-people/726015.md?page=7)