# TransAsia Flight GE235 crash **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 4, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804 "2015-02-04T14:14:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/1 "2015-02-04T14:14:37Z")
23 dead and counting. ☹ > **[TransAsia plane crashes in Taiwan river, killing at least 23 people](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/04/taiwan-plane-crash-lands-in-river)** > > Dramatic footage shows regional airliner clipping taxi cab and bridge minutes after takeoff Grim reading. But it makes me remember Captain Sullenberger’s landing on the Hudson. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/2 "2015-02-04T14:17:05Z")
Any speculation regarding what may have caused this? ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/3 "2015-02-04T14:27:04Z")
Per the linked article ; “The last communication from one of the aircraft’s pilots was “Mayday Mayday engine flameout”, according to an air traffic control recording on [liveatc.net](http://www.liveatc.net/).” Not sure about that craft’s ability to climb much, if at all, w/ just one prop functioning. Hope those ‘in the know’ of craft and single-engine performance can give more detail. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/4 "2015-02-04T14:44:56Z")
Right now, [Foxnews.com](http://Foxnews.com) has a big photo of the jet careening over (thru?) an elevated freeway _sideways_. :eek: ETA: There’s video footage in the article. The plane falls out of the sky sideways, clipping the freeway with its wing. It looks like a taxi got clipped as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/5 "2015-02-04T15:03:19Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Right now, [Foxnews.com](http://Foxnews.com) has a big photo of the jet careening over (thru?) an elevated freeway _sideways_. :eek: > > ETA: There’s video footage in the article. The plane falls out of the sky sideways, clipping the freeway with its wing. It looks like a taxi got clipped as well. Looks like it came kinda close to hitting those tallish buildings just prior to hitting taxi/bridge. Losing altitude fast, it appears. My amateur opinion is that pilot was trying to line-up with river (and trying avoid those buildings along way) and plane kept rolling to side at a too-great a rate, hence wing clip. Wild specualtion, to be sure, so I expect correction(s) from those who know this plane better [(turboprop ATR 72-600](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATR_72)) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/6 "2015-02-04T15:04:13Z")
It’s Taiwan’s 2nd TransAsia Airways crash in less than a year. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/7 "2015-02-04T15:10:43Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > It looks like a taxi got clipped as well. It did. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/8 "2015-02-04T16:04:18Z")
I try not to do any conjecture, as investigations usually bring up much better info than a WAG from someone not there. I’ll still throw out a few guesses that should be ignored as more info comes out. Anyways…guessing it lost the left engine (hard to tell from vid, but looking at flight path) was at an airspeed below one engine min control speed (Vmca1) for their takeoff weight and they were too low to be able to dump fuel to lighten their weight. At airspeeds less than Vmca1, with an engine out, you aren’t going fast enough to get air flow over the control surfaces to maintain control, and the engine that is operating is trying to turn the aircraft, and provide more lift (which is why I’m guessing the right wing was up and rising). You can stomp on the rudder and bank into the good engine, but if you are too slow, it won’t have much effect. Awful story, though. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/9 "2015-02-04T17:10:22Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > At airspeeds less than Vmca1, with an engine out, you aren’t going fast enough to get air flow over the control surfaces to maintain control Article said the plane had been airborne about 3 minutes. Wouldn’t it be normal to always stay above Vmca1 after takeoff? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/10 "2015-02-04T17:19:02Z")
From the video it does appear that the pilot lost the left engine. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/11 "2015-02-04T17:29:19Z")
Here’s a quote from the thread on Pprune: [ > [@Naali on Pprune](#): > > With some sim time to spare,we tried this: SF340,max wt,temp 50C,autofeather inop,left engine failure at V2. It was,just barely controllable,all foot and aileron thrown in,it still wanted to turn left,and sure didn`t want to climb. Crashed it on the airport area ,trying hard to get it back near the crossing runway, for a clear space. Inop AF,is a real nuisance. Most twins fly without it. ]([TransAsia in the water? - Page 6 - PPRuNe Forums](http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/555876-transasia-water-6.html#post8853683)) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/12 "2015-02-04T17:59:52Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > It looks like a taxi got clipped as well. “Hey boss, you’ll never guess what happened…” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/13 "2015-02-04T18:04:53Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > Anyways…guessing it lost the left engine (hard to tell from vid, but looking at flight path) was at an airspeed below one engine min control speed (Vmca1) for their takeoff weight and they were too low to be able to dump fuel to lighten their weight. Looks like left engine failure to me, too. The video I’ve seen is a bit crude but the left prop seems to be going a lot slower than the right and the left bank is also consistent with such a scenario. Nitpick: not all airplanes can “dump fuel”, in fact, I think the majority these days simply can’t do that. > [@Xema](#): > > Article said the plane had been airborne about 3 minutes. Wouldn’t it be normal to always stay above Vmca1 after takeoff? In theory, but my multi-rated buddies tell me that in an actual engine failure on a twin you have very little time to react before things snowball out of control, and take off is arguably the worst time for an engine failure. You’re low, slow, and nose-high, this is not a good combination with power loss. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/14 "2015-02-04T19:38:39Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > take off is arguably the worst time for an engine failure. You’re low, slow, and nose-high, this is not a good combination with power loss. Yes, and you are also heavily loaded with fuel, as opposed to cruise or landing later on. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/15 "2015-02-04T20:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Plane clips bridge and plunges into river, killing 23 in Taiwan Early online USAToday headline. So it was the bridge’s fault. Gotta wonder about the headline editors … ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/16 "2015-02-04T20:05:23Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Early online USAToday headline. > > So it was the bridge’s fault. Gotta wonder about the headline editors … Yeah, it makes it sound like that was the sole/main reason for the crash; clipping the bridge. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/17 "2015-02-04T20:20:34Z")
I’m amazed anyone survived at all after watching that video. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/18 "2015-02-04T23:27:17Z")
Serious question: has there been any report on the taxi driver? It wasn’t clear to me from the video how seriously damaged the vehicle was. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/19 "2015-02-04T23:34:11Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Serious question: has there been any report on the taxi driver? It wasn’t clear to me from the video how seriously damaged the vehicle was. Here’s a report: > **[Taiwan TransAsia plane crash: Taxi driver 'fainted when car hit by plane'](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/taiwan-transasia-plane-crash-i-5102561)** > > The driver of the cab that was hit by the wing of the crashing plane has reportedly suffered severe head injuries and concussion The taxi looks less massively fucked than you might expect ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804/20 "2015-02-04T23:59:23Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > Per the linked article ; “The last communication from one of the aircraft’s pilots was “Mayday Mayday engine flameout”, according to an air traffic control recording on [liveatc.net](http://www.liveatc.net/).” > > Not sure about that craft’s ability to climb much, if at all, w/ just one prop functioning. Hope those ‘in the know’ of craft and single-engine performance can give more detail. It’s an air transport category twin. That means that provided the airline follows the rules regarding take off performance, they would have taken off at a weight that gives adequate climb performance to clear any obstacles in the take off path having suffered an engine failure at the most critical time which is, depending on the runway and the conditions, at best just as the aircraft rotates (it could also be on the ground prior to rotation.) So the performance should have been available. > [@CGav8r](#): > > Anyways…guessing it lost the left engine (hard to tell from vid, but looking at flight path) was at an airspeed below one engine min control speed (Vmca1) for their takeoff weight and they were too low to be able to dump fuel to lighten their weight. > At airspeeds less than Vmca1, with an engine out, you aren’t going fast enough to get air flow over the control surfaces to maintain control, and the engine that is operating is trying to turn the aircraft, and provide more lift (which is why I’m guessing the right wing was up and rising). You can stomp on the rudder and bank into the good engine, but if you are too slow, it won’t have much effect. I haven’t flown an ATR72 but I doubt they’d have any fuel dumping capability, that function is generally restricted to aircraft that have a large margin between the max take-off weight and max landing weight. As far as being below Vmca, quite possible, but then the question is “how did they get that slow?”. V1 is the take-off decision speed, if you have an engine failure before V1 you have enough runway left to stop, if you have an engine failure at or after V1 you will have enough speed to safely fly. V1 must be faster than Vmcg and Vmca. In the process of rotating you will achieve V2 which is the minimum safe flying speed with an engine failed. So how did they get from a safe V2, back to being below Vmca? > [@Quartz](#): > > Here’s a quote from the thread on Pprune: > > [ That could account for them being out of control and slow. The only time I’ve crashed a simulator when I wasn’t just stuffing around was practicing an engine failure with no auto-feather. However, I’ve also successfully flown engine failures with no auto-feather as well, so it’s not a death sentence or anything, just a bit more challenging. I’ve also seen plenty of guys stuff up a bog standard engine failure after take-off so it can all be accounted for by poor handling without any prop malfunctions. > [@Asimovian](#): > > Serious question: has there been any report on the taxi driver? It wasn’t clear to me from the video how seriously damaged the vehicle was. Apparently no injuries (warning, photo of no injuries.) [http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8-Uj7MIMAEGkoD.jpg](http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8-Uj7MIMAEGkoD.jpg)]([TransAsia in the water? - Page 6 - PPRuNe Forums](http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/555876-transasia-water-6.html#post8853683)) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transasia-flight-ge235-crash/711804.md?page=2)