# Transatlantic Cables versus Nuclear Submarines **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147 "2012-09-28T16:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/21 "2012-10-01T20:55:55Z")
Here’s a quote from a notice I got today: > [@](#): > > Please be informed that there is a cable fault on SMW3 S7R1F2 between Cairo and Suez on 01 Oct 2012 at 0800UTC. The location of the fault is 28.5Km from Cairo towards Suez. > Traffic has been auto switched to R2. Cable team is on their way to the fault location This is typical detail and says there is a fault on SEA-ME-WE 3 (South East Asia-Middle East-Western Europe) Segment 7 Route 1 Fibre 2. This is a land segment, so easy to get to and quick to repair. In this case, less than two hours between first notice of fault and a clearance message. Location can be determined by OTDR (optical time domain reflectometer), which is built-in on some systems or by internal systems in terminal equipment. Sometimes, the optical path is still intact but a fault develops in the power feeding system that powers the optical regenerators. This can be a open circuit or shunt fault. Using a Wheatstone or similar bridge can determine the distance to that kind of fault. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/22 "2012-10-01T21:17:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Yes, the copper would be shorted at the break, so a bridge would measure resistance, a function of length. Also cool. 🙂 For the old copper lines, the [Telegrapher’s Equations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegrapher%27s_equations) describe the voltage/current on [transmission lines](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line) as a function of distance/time and are the basis for determining where the break is. At a break, the circuit is open. In these cases, the signal essentially reflects right back, so you can measure the distance to the break based on what you get back. We did a week of lectures on this in college, and it was really neat to see just how much you could deduce based on a couple relatively simple measurements. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/23 "2012-10-01T22:03:22Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > This is a [neat map](http://nicolasrapp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/world_map_05_DARK.jpg) of undersea cables. Very neat indeed. Any idea what that one is that goes from Stockholm toward the North Pole, but stops about halfway? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/24 "2012-10-01T22:16:19Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Very neat indeed. > Any idea what that one is that goes from Stockholm toward the North Pole, but stops about halfway? Either Santa or the Secret Alien North Pole Base. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/25 "2012-10-01T22:25:23Z")
[Norway to the island of Svalbard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Undersea_Cable_System). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/26 "2012-10-01T22:36:57Z")
Couldn’t bad guys cut a few critical cables at just the right moment for an assault, cyber-or otherwise? Is rerouting fairly automatic, or, as in the immediately preceding example, usually a matter of two hours? I can’t be the first to have thought of this.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/27 "2012-10-01T22:54:18Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Couldn’t bad guys cut a few critical cables at just the right moment for an assault, cyber-or otherwise? > > Is rerouting fairly automatic, or, as in the immediately preceding example, usually a matter of two hours? > > I can’t be the first to have thought of this.🙂 No indeed. Within a few days of declaring war in WWI, Britain cut the undersea telegraph cables between Germany and North America. This restricted their communications, and forced them to use radio (which Britain could eavesdrop on, and decode). And again in WWII, undersea cables going to Axis countries were cut. During the Cold War, the USA was a bit smarter. Instead of cutting Soviet cables, they installed an electronic tap on the cables. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/28 "2012-10-02T02:35:29Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > During the Cold War, the USA was a bit smarter. Instead of cutting Soviet cables, they installed an electronic tap on the cables. The CIA tap on East German phone cable was discovered. Did the undersea cable tap do better? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/29 "2012-10-02T02:42:29Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > … > Which brings to mind the question, are undersea cables copper or fiber optic? [Submarine communications cable - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable) has a nice cutaway. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/30 "2012-10-02T02:59:50Z")
Wiki has a [list of international submarine communications cables.](List of international submarine communications cables) Also, that lovely map of some of the (publicly reported only–right?) cables was produced by Nicola Rapp of Forbes magazine, with data from GeoTel Communications, according to the [Daily Mail.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2175327/What-internet-really-looks-like--massive-sprawling-global-collection-wires-keeps-world-connected.html) The access points are sometimes secret, right? I remember but can’t find an article about an English one that was discovered, to the consternation of someone or other. PS: [History of the Atlantic Cable & Undersea Communications: from the first submarine cable of 1850 to the worldwide fiber optic network](http://atlantic-cable.com/) is fun. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/31 "2012-10-02T04:10:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The CIA tap on East German phone cable was discovered. Did the undersea cable tap do better? Probably worse. I believe that a traitorous American sold the info about the tap to them before the tap was even completely built & installed. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/32 "2012-10-02T05:46:33Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Probably worse. I believe that a traitorous American sold the info about the tap to them before the tap was even completely built & installed. If we’re talking about the [Okhotsk tap](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells), then it was blown by [Robert Pelton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_William_Pelton). Interestingly, per the wiki, the Soviets did not remove the taps immediately upon learning of the operation. YGIAGAM how much intelligence from the tap was disinformation. OTOH, I doubt that was the only submarine cable tapped either. An interesting article on the USN’s issues with Soviet spies in the 80s—mostly on the [Walkers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_spy_ring), but there’s a short blurb on Pelton----can be found [here](http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/2010-06/navys-biggest-betrayal). EDIT: The history, [Spycraft](http://www.amazon.com/Spycraft-History-Spytechs-Communism-Al-Qaeda/dp/0452295475), details a similar operation, this one directed at Soviet data lines going from Moscow to, IIRC, Arzamas. Worth your time, if you’re interested in the history of technical spying and the CIA. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/33 "2012-10-02T10:45:47Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > …Also, that lovely map of some of the (publicly reported only–right?) cables was produced by Nicola Rapp of Forbes magazine, with data from GeoTel Communications, according to the [Daily Mail.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2175327/What-internet-really-looks-like--massive-sprawling-global-collection-wires-keeps-world-connected.html) Cx: _Nicolas_ Rapp. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147/34 "2012-10-02T12:32:05Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I believe the fiber ones have amplifier/regeneration devices built into them at various points. So I would expect that with current technology, they can query to these devices, and see which ones answer. That would allow them to isolate the section of cable that is damaged. The TPC-5 which Toshiba won the bid for the control system had repeaters every 200 km. You can see the growth in the amount of traffic possible in a figure [in this paper](http://www.toshiba.co.jp/tech/review/2000/04/b02.pdf) (it’s in Japanese, but the vertical axis is the number of voice circuits possible, which is now meaningless except as a reference). I worked on the bid product for Toshiba, and lead the translation and documentation team. Toshiba bid in dollars instead of yen and wound up losing over a million dollars on the project. They fired the director of the project, and I would have been happy to see him go, except I had already moved along. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transatlantic-cables-versus-nuclear-submarines/636147.md?page=1)