# Transexual athletes - is this fair? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2004, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616 "2004-02-23T05:35:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/41 "2004-05-18T14:28:39Z")
Sorry, **KellyM**. I didn`t realize your earlier link was the same one I posted, I didn`t even see it actually. (it was greyed out) ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/42 "2004-05-18T14:56:58Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > The only “advantage” I have left from my male genetics are my height (6’0") and my large feet (size 11), and neither of those is all that particularly remarkable for a woman. Objection! \*\*KellyM[b/] is by my mearsurements 5’11" even, although she disagrees. She says that her measurements are 5’11 7/8" and that rounds to 6’. She does seem shorter than when we first met. She is much, much weaker, it is now far easier to pin her to the bed for one thing. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/43 "2004-05-18T15:14:01Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Kelly I can tell you’re absolutely pissed off on this subject, I on the other hand don’t have a lot of emotional investment here. And I remember certain West German athletes from Olympics past who, while not transexual, were not the gender they were advertised to be. Seems to be a similar potential here. Your memory is faulty, I am afraid. A good summary of the history of female Olympians suspected of being male can be found [here](http://www.glbtq.com/arts/sports_transgender_issues.html). You will note that none of them are from West Germany (although one was from Nazi Germany; she was intersexual and eventually assigned to male). The only proven, documented case of an imposter involved an American – who, curiously enough, accused the person she lost to of being a man. (She wasn’t.) All cases of suspected imposters at the Olympics that I know of have involved false accusation, born women using testosterone as a performance enhancer (a possible explanation for Nazi German and Soviet bloc “unusually masculine women”), or intersexual conditions. The one imposter I mentioned above was not questioned at the Olympics themselves, but was instead discovered years later when she was shot dead in a robbery and her male genitalia discovered on autopsy. A lack of emotional involvement does not excuse making claims based on ignorance and false information. Since you did so, I objected. This is, after all, Great Debates, and you can’t just post an assertion and expect it to go unquestioned. And especially when that assertion has already been made and dealt with previously in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/44 "2004-05-21T02:22:08Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I’m very petite and would not win in most strength competitions, but I’d kick ass in gymnastics. Sorry, I have to nitpick. 😃 Elite artistics gymnasts are extremely strong. Strength is vital in artistics gymnastics. ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/45 "2004-05-21T02:26:40Z")
> [@Burnt Sugar](#): > > Sorry, I have to nitpick. 😃 Elite artistics gymnasts are extremely strong. Strength is vital in artistics gymnastics. That would be “artistic” not “artistics”. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/46 "2004-05-24T19:29:27Z")
Almsot all the discussion abotu competing mentioned in thsi thread refers to post-op persons, but the OP specifically states “The International Olympic Committee even wants to allow **pre-op** transsexuals to compete…” (emphasis mine) That being the case, and the link is expired now so I’ve not read the piece (I know, RTFA), but unless HRT is mandated, wouldn’t a pre-op, non-HRT athlete be allowed and therefor have a huge advantage? ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/47 "2004-05-24T19:32:24Z")
_Almost…about…this…therefore…_ sheesh ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/48 "2004-05-24T20:51:08Z")
> [@thinksnow](#): > > Almsot all the discussion abotu competing mentioned in thsi thread refers to post-op persons, but the OP specifically states “The International Olympic Committee even wants to allow **pre-op** transsexuals to compete…” (emphasis mine) > > That being the case, and the link is expired now so I’ve not read the piece (I know, RTFA), but unless HRT is mandated, wouldn’t a pre-op, non-HRT athlete be allowed and therefor have a huge advantage? I don’t know where the OP got that idea; everything I’ve seen about the IOC’s proposed (and now final) rules would allow a pre-op to compete except as a member of his or her birth sex (and even that would be prohibited to a female-to-male because testosterone is a prohibited steroid). I can only assume that the Sun misreported the IOC’s rules: > [@](#): > > The IOC’s new policies differentiate between sex reassignment that takes > place before and after puberty. With respect to individuals whose sex is > “reassigned” before puberty, the “new” sex is to be taken as given. Those > undergoing sex reassignment surgery after puberty will be eligible for > participation in female or male competitions depending on the following > conditions. First, “surgical anatomical changes [must] have been completed, > including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy.” Second, “legal > recognition of their assigned sex [must have] been conferred by the > appropriate official authorities.” Third, “hormonal therapy appropriate for > the assigned sex [must have] been administered in a verifiable manner and > for a sufficient length of time to minimize gender-related advantages in > sports competitions.” ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616/49 "2004-05-25T00:34:38Z")
Hmmm…pioneer [Renee Richards is against it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/20/sports/othersports/20roberts.html)Not so much because of the body itself but because of the heavy doping involved in the change. > [@](#): > > But in the eyes of I.O.C. members - perhaps worried about future lawsuits, perhaps hoping to make a social statement - steroids are fine as long as they are disguised as estrogen, as in therapy for male-to-female athletes. Several doping officials who were reached yesterday were confounded by the I.O.C.'s decision, privately questioning how they will verify operations, apply tests to what are essentially unnatural levels of hormones and interpret results. > > As Richards noted, hormone treatments for transgender athletes might diminish muscle mass differences between a man and woman, but the skeletal advantages - and possibly lung and heart capacities - are left unchanged. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transexual-athletes-is-this-fair/230616.md?page=2)