# Transgender and public bathrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190 "2016-04-14T16:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/262 "2016-04-27T16:29:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Thanks, but there’s no reason it can’t be both! The _“straight cis men would happily impersonate transwomen if it made sex-offending easier to get away with”_ argument is offensive and derogatory to pretty much any group of people who aren’t fundamentally horrible. ^^^^ +1 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/263 "2016-04-27T20:19:17Z")
Cruz is attacking Trump over who can be the most bigoted and ignorant on this subject(Hint, Cruz is winning): > **[PolitiFact - Cruz attack ad on Trump distorts transgender bathroom access issue](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/apr/25/ted-cruz/cruz-attack-ad-trump-distorts-transgender-bathroom/)** > > Donald Trump wants to let male predators masquerading as women in the same bathrooms as your wife and daughter, accordin ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/264 "2016-04-27T20:22:18Z")
Haven’t read all threads on this subject, but am surprised at the focus on the pervert aspect of this, when the real issue is a much larger group: Parents. Parents don’t want their children to become lgbtetc, therefore parents don’t want lgbtetc behavior/lifestyle to gain mainstream acceptability. Good luck… ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/265 "2016-04-27T20:32:52Z")
The town of Oxford, Alabama has announced that it will jail anyone who uses the “wrong” bathroom for up to six months. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/266 "2016-04-27T20:32:57Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Haven’t read all threads on this subject, but am surprised at the focus on the pervert aspect of this, when the real issue is a much larger group: Parents. > > Parents don’t want their children to become lgbtetc, therefore parents don’t want lgbtetc behavior/lifestyle to gain mainstream acceptability. > > Good luck… You can’t catch being LGBT from a toilet seat. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/267 "2016-04-27T20:35:00Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The town of Oxford, Alabama has announced that it will jail anyone who uses the “wrong” bathroom for up to six months. Man, all those Dads bring their little daughters into the Men’s room are in for trouble. :rolleyes:or are they gonna jail the 6yo girl? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/268 "2016-04-27T20:45:14Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The town of Oxford, Alabama has announced that it will jail anyone who uses the “wrong” bathroom for up to six months. So if you use the wrong bathroom for _more than_ six months, you’re free and clear? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/269 "2016-04-28T02:47:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You can’t catch being LGBT from a toilet seat. :rolleyes: How do you KNOW that? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/270 "2016-04-28T02:47:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So if you use the wrong bathroom for _more than_ six months, you’re free and clear? If you’re in the bathroom for six months, you’ve got other problems to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/271 "2016-04-28T03:29:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But surely a guy who would do that is merely an unscrupulous liar and pervy creep, who’s willing to misrepresent his entire gender identity in order to take advantage of a chance to creep on unsuspecting women. > > **Why should the rights of trans people be trampled on just because unscrupulous liars and pervy creeps might possibly try to imitate trans people in order to indulge in criminal activities?** > > And I think it might be more difficult than you imagine to actually get away with the criminal activities you’re fantasizing about. You’d have to change into your dress and other feminine accoutrements to drive to the gym, for example, and if anyone you knew happened to see you, they would doubtless think it odd. > > You have to give proof of ID for a gym membership, of course, and at some point it’s bound to happen that somebody notices you’re ostensibly a woman with a man’s driver’s license. In fact, as soon as anybody even starts to question your gender-identity status—which is likely to happen quite soon, what with you sporting your hairy ass and creepy boner in the women’s shower and all—your little masquerade is over and you’re facing (richly deserved) arrest and jail time as a sex offender. > In general, I think this kind of _“haw haw haw boys will be boys”_ trivialization of straight cisgender men’s professed readiness to exploit trans acceptance in order to illegally creep on women is not only transphobic but thoroughly misogynistic. **It’s not cute, or okay, or excusable for straight cis men to try to intimidate women out of respecting transgender people’s rights by implied threats that non-transgender men, including themselves, will deliberately misuse those rights as an opportunity to commit sex offenses.** Who are you to judge? If the standards of acceptable behavior are dictated by those with the shrillest supporters why can’t we all play that game? Why is it necessary to have law and societal sanctions against certain behaviors to begin with? It’s because humans aren’t how you wish they were. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/272 "2016-04-28T03:40:26Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > It’s pretty amazing how many conservatives are willing to admit that they are actually dangerous sexual predators barely held in check. Resorting to personal attacks? I suppose that’s acceptable because I’m not blindly jumping on the progressive cause of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/273 "2016-04-28T04:10:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Who are you to judge? It’s not me doing the judging, it’s the law. If you deliberately misrepresent your actual gender identity as a stratagem for invading other people’s privacy for the purpose of committing criminal acts of voyeurism, you are liable to legal penalties. Sorry if that prospect spoils your fun. (Not sorry, actually.) [QUOTE=octopus] If the standards of acceptable behavior are dictated by those with the shrillest supporters why can’t we all play that game? [/quote] It’s not a game. Transgender people simply want to use restrooms and locker rooms for their intended purposes, because they simply need to go to the bathroom, or change their clothes. **Using restrooms and locker rooms for their intended purposes is generally agreed to be acceptable behavior.** You, on the other hand, by your own admission, want to use women’s restrooms and locker rooms to commit criminal sex offenses. **Committing criminal sex offenses is generally agreed to be unacceptable behavior.** So much for your nonsensical false equivalence between harmless transgender people and pervy lying creeps. > [@octopus](#): > > Why is it necessary to have law and societal sanctions against certain behaviors to begin with? It’s because humans aren’t how you wish they were. Which is why we use law and societal sanctions to target the humans **who are actually engaging in the harmful behaviors** , rather than unjustly punishing other people in their stead. By all means, let’s arrest and jail the pervy lying creeps who sneak into women’s rooms to spy on women without their consent. But we shouldn’t punish harmless transgender people or deny them their rights because of the bad behavior of the pervy lying creeps. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/274 "2016-04-28T04:11:23Z")
Again I ask you, **octopus** : > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What bathroom would you have [this person](http://instinctmagazine.com/sites/instinctmagazine.com/files/styles/large/public/images/blog_posts/Karim%20Shah/2016/02/09/CMC_2016_Wildcard01_M_Benjamin_533x800.jpg.132104.jpg?itok=YeEP5tbM) use? > What about [this person](http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/40/56/06/8577433/5/920x920.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/275 "2016-04-28T04:17:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Resorting to personal attacks? :dubious: Nobody’s “attacking” you with anything except your own repeatedly proclaimed statements. **You have explicitly expressed your willingness to try to impersonate a transwoman in a women’s locker room in order to commit criminal sex offenses of voyeurism.** People who do that sort of thing are sexual predators. If you don’t like being described as a sexual predator, then quit bragging to all and sundry about how you’re just fine with being one. It’s not your disagreement with transgender rights that’s getting you identified as a pervy creep here: it’s your own unambiguous proclamation that you **embrace** being a pervy creep. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/276 "2016-04-28T04:17:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Resorting to personal attacks? I suppose that’s acceptable because I’m not blindly jumping on the progressive cause of the day. Resorting to simple observation of what you (and many others) have stated. It is incredibly common for people who are in favor of laws that attack trans people to state that they would engage in behavior ranging from creepy to predatory if they thought they could get away with it. Your statement, while somewhat ambiguous, read to me like you would be willing to pretend to be a woman in order to watch women shower if you thought you could get away with it. If I misread the statement then you could clarify exactly what you meant, but complaining that I’m ‘resorting to personal attacks’ because I responded to your statement that you desire to commit criminal sexual behavior as though you desire to commit criminal sexual behavior is more than a bit silly. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/277 "2016-04-28T04:56:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask you, **octopus** : I’d say men’s for the first and women’s for the second. And that’s a handsome dude. See no transphobia. > [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Nobody’s “attacking” you with anything except your own repeatedly proclaimed statements. > > **You have explicitly expressed your willingness to try to impersonate a transwoman in a women’s locker room in order to commit criminal sex offenses of voyeurism.** People who do that sort of thing are sexual predators. > > If you don’t like being described as a sexual predator, then quit bragging to all and sundry about how you’re just fine with being one. > It’s not your disagreement with transgender rights that’s getting you identified as a pervy creep here: it’s your own unambiguous proclamation that you **embrace** being a pervy creep. You are ridiculous to think if the mere claim of being a woman isn’t going to lead to issues. And I see nothing wrong, pervy, creepy, or criminal with being where one is legally entitled. What’s the expectation of privacy in a communal shower? That’s analogous to calling someone a sex offender for going to a nude beach. Anyways, I suggest buying a dictionary. I embrace being a pervy creep? Since I’ve never admitted to being one much less embraced this make believe state of yours I’d dial back the personal attacks. Furthermore, you don’t even know my views on the transgendered. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/278 "2016-04-28T05:04:29Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Resorting to simple observation of what you (and many others) have stated. It is incredibly common for people who are in favor of laws that attack trans people to state that they would engage in behavior ranging from creepy to predatory if they thought they could get away with it. Your statement, while somewhat ambiguous, read to me like you would be willing to pretend to be a woman in order to watch women shower if you thought you could get away with it. If I misread the statement then you could clarify exactly what you meant, but complaining that I’m ‘resorting to personal attacks’ because I responded to your statement that you desire to commit criminal sexual behavior as though you desire to commit criminal sexual behavior is more than a bit silly. I don’t think you are a lawyer so you may want to stop pretending to be one. What is the crime of being where one is legally entitled? Do you honestly think in the real world that the law of unintended consequences won’t rear its ugly head? If all it took was the claim to be a woman to be surrounded by women in various states of undress you do highly overestimate young males if you think that won’t be exploited. Especially young males in groups and young males that are inebriated. College dorms, where special snowflakes get triggered and cry for a ‘safe place’ if they see the letters T r u m p in chalk, are going to handle these laws and changing mores how? And not once have I said I was in favor of predatory behavior or stalking or attacks on people due to gender identity. Some of you folks, and I can’t blame you for the brain you got, don’t put any effort into separating the person from a point of view being advanced. Normally, I don’t declare strongly my preference for a law based upon my personal opinion of a group. How’s that relevant other than pathetic virtue signaling? I like to discuss ramifications and loopholes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/279 "2016-04-28T05:11:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Thanks, but there’s no reason it can’t be both! The _“straight cis men would happily impersonate transwomen if it made sex-offending easier to get away with”_ argument is offensive and derogatory to pretty much any group of people who aren’t fundamentally horrible. I do so love it, however, when people try to argue something isn’t misogynist because it’s also misandrist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/280 "2016-04-28T05:52:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And I see nothing wrong, pervy, creepy, or criminal with being where one is legally entitled. But people who identify as men are **not** legally entitled to be in locker rooms/showers/restrooms designated for women: and certainly not for the purpose of committing voyeuristic acts without those women’s consent. [QUOTE=octopus] I embrace being a pervy creep? Since I’ve never admitted to being one [/quote] Yup, that’s exactly what you did do: > [@octopus](#): > > I’d wear a dress to shower with the ladies. The old dudes at the gym are a bit harder on the eyes **That is an explicit and blatant admission that you are willing to lie about your gender identity and pretend to be a transwoman, in order to get access to places where you can ogle undressed women.** **That sort of behavior is being a pervy lying creep. Bragging about being willing to commit that sort of behavior is embracing being a pervy lying creep.** Don’t blame other people because you apparently can’t even remember and/or understand your own unsavory assertions. Like I said, **if you don’t like being described as a pervy wannabe sex offender _then quit bragging about being one_**. [QUOTE=octopus] Furthermore, you don’t even know my views on the transgendered. [/QUOTE] Well, I know that by your own explicit admission, you are perfectly willing to misuse the rights of transgender people by deceitfully pretending to be a transwoman so you can illegally creep on women in women’s locker rooms. Nobody who genuinely respected the rights of transgender people (or of women in general, for that matter) would be open to the possibility of doing such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/281 "2016-04-28T05:54:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And not once have I said I was in favor of predatory behavior or stalking or attacks on people due to gender identity. Some of you folks, and I can’t blame you for the brain you got, don’t put any effort into separating the person from a point of view being advanced. > > Normally, I don’t declare strongly my preference for a law based upon my personal opinion of a group. How’s that relevant other than pathetic virtue signaling? I like to discuss ramifications and loopholes. If you argue a position, and do not state that it is not your own position, you are signaling that the position is one you actually hold. And the positions you hold can easily be used to evaluate you as a person. As for what you call virtue signaling, it is important to establish the fundamental paradigm under which your arguments are based. Sure, ideally, your arguments would be so sound that your underlying paradigm is unimportant. But, in reality, your arguments will have holes, and understanding your motivations will help fill in those holes. By showing a lack of transphobia, you tell us that, even if your arguments are misguided, you are at least trying to help, which goes a long way in deciding whether or not people should try to argue with you. Finding points of agreement is a good thing. Your arguments are incorrect, no matter whether you are transphobic or not. Other people have explained why at length. Just because you assume something will happen doesn’t mean it is true. The places where trans friendly laws or rules are in place do not have an increase of pervy men disguising themselves as women. And it’s extremely rare to begin with–more rare than being a trans person who wants to use the restroom. The thing you fail to recognize is that, if someone comes in to perv in the restroom or locker room, they will wind up performing atypical actions that are detectable. The restroom is easy–you see someone looking over stalls are just standing their leering, you can tell what they are there for, and their gender doesn’t matter. They can, by current laws, be kicked out. Heck, all you really need is a trespassing law. The locker rooms are a bit harder, as there could actually be women in states of undress outside the showers and changing rooms and such. But someone spending time in there while not doing locker-room activities is still pretty easy to detect, as is staring or leering. And these are the behaviors people care about, not the mere fact that someone might be aroused by your body–if that were the case, lebsians wouldn’t be allowed in, either. Even if your intentions are sincere, there just isn’t an argument that there will be unintended consequences. We’ve got both the theory and the practice to show that the problems you fear do not arise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=15)