# Transgender and public bathrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190 "2016-04-14T16:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/302 "2016-04-28T18:40:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Angry? Not at all. I just find it fascinating that the simple concept of debate without engaging in ad-hominem attacks or being hyper-literal is seemingly beyond your capabilities. I doubt that’s the real case and I think you are being deliberately offensive as a tactic. Pointing out that you made a statement indicating that you wish to engage in predatory behavior is not an ad hominem argument. It’s analyzing part of your direct contribution to the discussion, and is not being used to invalidate any particular point that you’ve made. Complaining that I’m being ‘hyper literal’ or ‘deliberately offensive’ for discussing the words you chose to write in this thread is pretty blatantly absurd. > [@](#): > > I also find it quite odd that people feel it’s a crime, I’d like a cite for the statue if possible, to see a woman nude under false pretenses I’d like a cite for someone making that claim. I certainly never claimed that ‘to see a woman nude under false pretenses’ is a crime, and I don’t think anyone else did either. Taking a specific claim and making it overly general, then asking for a cite supporting the overgenarlization is not honest argument. > [@](#): > > yet a post op transgender not revealing status to his/her mate whom is presumably naked during sex is perfectly fine. There are no laws requiring people to reveal their medical history, so no it’s not criminal, or even unethical, and ‘not revealing medical history when not even asked’ is vastly different than telling an outright lie. OTOH, the trans people that I know will in no way get physically intimate with someone who doesn’t know that they are trans, because it’s likely to result in them being killed and the murdered being allowed to get away scott-free with a ‘trans panic’ defense. Do you have any kind of cite about the frequency of trans people having sex with others who are unaware of their trans status? And no, the various rap songs where the singer discusses being tricked by a ‘guy dressed as a woman’ aren’t an actual cite. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/303 "2016-04-28T18:43:42Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Agreed. So let’s do that. > > A law is passed that says that people born with penises have to use the men’s room and people born with vaginas have to use the women’s room. The intent is to remove gender confusion from the equation. The unintended consequence is that you are _requiring_ (with dubious means of enforcement) transgender men with beards, who present to the world as men, to use the ladies room and you are _requiring_ transgender women with breasts, who present to the word as women, to use the men’s room. You’ve now _created_ gender confusion where none need exist - ergo, it’s a stupid law and we should go back to the status quo, where people are entitled to use the restroom that matches their gender identity. Ah someone reasonable. How surprising! I don’t have much issue with people peeing where or when they need. I’ve had to pee on the side of a building before. I’ve peed in the ladies room. I had to share a stall with a strange woman at a Lilith Fair concert. She wanted to save her spot in the men’s room because the women to men ratio was so skewed they stampeded into our bathroom. Don’t really care. But what exactly are the criteria to have a gender identity? Is it merely a statement? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/304 "2016-04-28T18:45:30Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Pointing out that you made a statement indicating that you wish to engage in predatory behavior is not an ad hominem argument. It’s analyzing part of your direct contribution to the discussion, and is not being used to invalidate any particular point that you’ve made. Complaining that I’m being ‘hyper literal’ or ‘deliberately offensive’ for discussing the words you chose to write in this thread is pretty blatantly absurd. > > I’d like a cite for someone making that claim. I certainly never claimed that ‘to see a woman nude under false pretenses’ is a crime, and I don’t think anyone else did either. Taking a specific claim and making it overly general, then asking for a cite supporting the overgenarlization is not honest argument. > > There are no laws requiring people to reveal their medical history, so no it’s not criminal, or even unethical, and ‘not revealing medical history when not even asked’ is vastly different than telling an outright lie. OTOH, the trans people that I know will in no way get physically intimate with someone who doesn’t know that they are trans, because it’s likely to result in them being killed and the murdered being allowed to get away scott-free with a ‘trans panic’ defense. > > Do you have any kind of cite about the frequency of trans people having sex with others who are unaware of their trans status? And no, the various rap songs where the singer discusses being tricked by a ‘guy dressed as a woman’ aren’t an actual cite. Stop with the personal attacks, please. Your obsession is creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/305 "2016-04-28T18:47:00Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I can’t honestly say I’m massively bothered about the issue. If tansgendered people want to use certain bathrooms why not let them? I can’t think of a good reason why not. Of all the injustices in the World today I can’t say that I find people being forced to use public toilets specific to their biological sex looming large, but of course the fact there are bigger problems is never in itself reason not to solve a problem. Part of the problem is precisely that the definition of “biological sex” isn’t as cut and dried as we thought before we discovered hormones and DNA. Look up “intersex”, “androgen insensitivity”, “trisomy”. The spontaneously-grown groin parts don’t always match the DNA, and both have more than the two options we’re used to assuming. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/306 "2016-04-28T19:00:17Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Maybe I am naive about what surgery can do, but I think personally I wouldn’t want to use most public men’s toilets if I didn’t have the equipment to use the urinals, but that again my hypothetical personal preference is not necessarily someone else’s actual preference. Transmen typically do not use urinals. Fortunately, men’s rooms have stalls. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/307 "2016-04-28T19:08:49Z")
I have a related question: What would happen if a man wearing womens clothes and saying he’s transgender, walked into the womens restroom at a lesbian bar? And really how do gay bars handle the issue? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/308 "2016-04-28T19:15:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I have a related question: > > What would happen if a man wearing womens clothes and saying he’s transgender, walked into the womens restroom at a lesbian bar? Nothing noteworthy would happen. What do _you_ think would happen in that situation? > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And really how do gay bars handle the issue? How do you think these things have been handled up until now? Do you think trans people just started to exist as the Republicans started passing these new laws? You’ve just never noticed anything about this issue until your party told you to be afraid and creeped out by it. You’ve probably pissed in the same room as a trans person and never even realized it. But now you’re all weirded out all of a sudden. You should ask yourself why that is? Why is this an issue for you now all of a sudden when it never has been before? ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/309 "2016-04-28T19:17:18Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Part of the problem is precisely that the definition of “biological sex” isn’t as cut and dried as we thought before we discovered hormones and DNA. Look up “intersex”, “androgen insensitivity”, “trisomy”. The spontaneously-grown groin parts don’t always match the DNA, and both have more than the two options we’re used to assuming. Biology is a very “shades-of-gray” subject, however sex is one of the most “black-and-white” things there is in biology due to DNA and sexual dimorphism. Of course “shades-of-gray” creeps into biology and you can have individuals with DNA that is not distinctly of one sex or individuals with the DNA of one sex, but the morphology of the other sex. However even when shades of gray exist, it doesn’t stop the black and white existing too. Biological sex is still something easily definable, though still, in the sense that a transgender individual may alter their morphology to appear superficially similar to one sex or that there is some evidence that gender-identity may be caused by the morphology of certain structures in the brain, transgenderism touches on the shades of gray. However I think it would be disingenuous to believe that transgenderism confounds biological notions of sex in the same way as XXY-syndrome (for example) does. It could be said to be unhelpful as it is looking at people through the same lens with which we might view mice in a laboratory rather than viewing them as human beings. However I don’t think there are any great arguments that it is factually incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/310 "2016-04-28T19:31:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I grew up watching MASH… For the record, when a Danish physician came to the 4077 and told Klinger that he could go to Denmark and have a “sex change”, Klinger IIRC expresses a transphobic comment. Meaning…about as much as whatever point you’re trying to make, which escapes me completely. > [@](#): > > please don’t tell me you’ve lived such a sheltered life that you _honestly_ think that people don’t try to exploit rules and that comments or jokes aren’t made about such. Moving the goalposts. I never said anything about all rules, jokes, and comments - or such in general. > [@](#): > > Speaking of which why are you disturbophobic? Is this some sort of performance art? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/311 "2016-04-28T19:37:43Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I have a related question: > > What would happen if a man wearing womens clothes and saying he’s transgender, walked into the womens restroom at a lesbian bar? > > And really how do gay bars handle the issue? Being a frequenter of every gay, lesbian, LGBTQIA, etc. bar in the KC area, I can tell you…pretty much nothing happens. Crossdressers (who are cisgender men dressed female) use the bathroom they present as. I cannot even count the number of times it’s happened and I’ve been present. The worst I’ve seen happen is a group of other lesbians roll their eyes and say things to the effect of “as long as he knows the sink isn’t a urinal.” Now if this man dressed as a woman goes into the women’s room and starts propositioning women, or harassing them? Yeah, I’ve seen it once or twice with a really drunk crossdresser. The bouncer/manager goes in and gets them, and out they go. That’s how the system should work. (the same thing happened with my friend S, a cisgender butch lesbian who got outrageously drunk one night and went into the men’s room (dressed male), and started harassing men.) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/312 "2016-04-28T19:49:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Stop with the personal attacks, please. Your obsession is creepy. So my responding critically and factually to things that you write is ‘personal attacks’, but you claiming that I have a creepy obsession for replying to posts where you mention me by name isn’t? I think the amount of real argument is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/313 "2016-04-28T19:58:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I have a related question: > > What would happen if a man wearing womens clothes and saying he’s transgender, walked into the womens restroom at a lesbian bar? > > And really how do gay bars handle the issue? I might be wrong, but to me I’d guess that the risk of a transwoman in a men’s restroom being assaulted (sexual or otherwise) represents by far the greater risk than any of the other public safety risks combined. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/314 "2016-04-28T20:01:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But what exactly are the criteria to have a gender identity? Is it merely a statement? I’m not entirely sure. When I think of me (a boring ole white guy with a penis who likes the nekkid women), I suppose that my gender identity began from birth, with lots of variables gearing me towards my gender expression. I suppose it’s the same for most people. But even if it’s not something ingrained since birth, so what? Even if it’s a person’s first day switching genders, does it matter, presuming they are sincere? I think, amongst the rancor, that’s what people are getting at - a person with a sincere gender identity is not going to create a scene when they use facilities relating to that gender. Instead, they’ll blend in and be innocuous. And a person who doesn’t blend in (such as a voyeur) is going to be called out. It’s not genitalia that’s the determinate of whether the person belongs there; it’s how they act. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/315 "2016-04-28T21:13:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But what exactly are the criteria to have a gender identity? Is it merely a statement? Of course not. As this is something anyone trying to seriously debate this issue ought to have done their legwork on, I can only assume the question is rhetorical or argumentative. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/316 "2016-04-28T21:49:44Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Of course not. As this is something anyone trying to seriously debate this issue ought to have done their legwork on, I can only assume the question is rhetorical or argumentative. I’m truly unaware of the definitive authority on the subject. Why not post a source? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/317 "2016-04-28T22:08:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m truly unaware of the definitive authority on the subject. Why not post a source? Will you take the [DSM-5](http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf)? Or the UK’s [NHS website on gender dysphoria treatment](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx)? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/318 "2016-04-28T23:45:48Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Being a frequenter of every gay, lesbian, LGBTQIA, etc. bar in the KC area, I can tell you…pretty much nothing happens. Crossdressers (who are cisgender men dressed female) use the bathroom they present as. I cannot even count the number of times it’s happened and I’ve been present. The worst I’ve seen happen is a group of other lesbians roll their eyes and say things to the effect of “as long as he knows the sink isn’t a urinal.” > > Now if this man dressed as a woman goes into the women’s room and starts propositioning women, or harassing them? Yeah, I’ve seen it once or twice with a really drunk crossdresser. The bouncer/manager goes in and gets them, and out they go. That’s how the system should work… This is exactly what i would expect. If a straight cisgender man, dressed as a woman, walked into the ladies room, peed into a toilet, washed his hands, and left, what problem would be be causing? And if a man wants to assault women in the ladies room, i don’t know why he would bother to wear a dress. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/319 "2016-04-29T01:41:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > \*\*I’d say men’s for the first and women’s for the second. And that’s a handsome dude. See no transphobia. > \*\* > You are ridiculous to think if the mere claim of being a woman isn’t going to lead to issues. And I see nothing wrong, pervy, creepy, or criminal with being where one is legally entitled. What’s the expectation of privacy in a communal shower? That’s analogous to calling someone a sex offender for going to a nude beach. Anyways, I suggest buying a dictionary. > > I embrace being a pervy creep? Since I’ve never admitted to being one much less embraced this make believe state of yours I’d dial back the personal attacks. > > Furthermore, you don’t even know my views on the transgendered. (Bolding mine) - So you are actually against the type of law under discussion? After all, that handsome dude was assigned female at birth. So you agree that he should use the bathroom of his gender identity, not that of assigned birth? And btw, as a woman, your “joke” that you would happily don a disguise in order to violate the privacy of women, because we are easier on the eyes? Gross. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/320 "2016-04-29T03:09:00Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > (Bolding mine) - So you are actually against the type of law under discussion? After all, that handsome dude was assigned female at birth. So you agree that he should use the bathroom of his gender identity, not that of assigned birth? > And btw, as a woman, your “joke” that you would happily don a disguise in order to violate the privacy of women, because we are easier on the eyes? Gross. I’m not a fan of laws that are going to make life harder for people unnecessarily. I do think issues arise in sports and other fields where being one gender has a huge advantage either due to nature or discriminatory policy. Men pee in troughs at some facilities and many facilities have no privacy in the communal shower. It wouldn’t bother me. I’m not a prude and I don’t have a problem showering with the women folk, the men folk (not my first preference sorry sensitive flowers) or if there is a category I’m unaware of those as well. But who am I to dictate to others their comfort levels? That’s a level of arrogance I’ll reserve for the left. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/321 "2016-04-29T03:20:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > But who am I to dictate to others their comfort levels? That’s a level of arrogance I’ll reserve for the left. … you do realize these laws are being put forward by the Republicans, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=17)