# Transgender and public bathrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190 "2016-04-14T16:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/322 "2016-04-29T03:25:03Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … you do realize these laws are being put forward by the Republicans, right? Silly, only _certain_ people get to have comfort levels that we need to acknowledge! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/323 "2016-04-29T05:47:13Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … you do realize these laws are being put forward by the Republicans, right? Yeah, I realize it. So? It’s a democracy and those people have a right to their opinion and to enact law. Democracy doesn’t mean popular rule only when it suits your particular point of view. I explained my point of view. Others feel different. Is that not their right? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/324 "2016-04-29T11:31:51Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Being a frequenter of every gay, lesbian, LGBTQIA, etc. bar in the KC area, I can tell you…pretty much nothing happens. Crossdressers (who are cisgender men dressed female) use the bathroom they present as. I cannot even count the number of times it’s happened and I’ve been present. The worst I’ve seen happen is a group of other lesbians roll their eyes and say things to the effect of “as long as he knows the sink isn’t a urinal.” > > Now if this man dressed as a woman goes into the women’s room and starts propositioning women, or harassing them? Yeah, I’ve seen it once or twice with a really drunk crossdresser. The bouncer/manager goes in and gets them, and out they go. That’s how the system should work. > > (the same thing happened with my friend S, a cisgender butch lesbian who got outrageously drunk one night and went into the men’s room (dressed male), and started harassing men.) Thanks, your reply was much better than Airbeck’s. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/325 "2016-04-29T12:27:10Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Being a frequenter of every gay, lesbian, LGBTQIA, etc. bar in the KC area, I can tell you…pretty much nothing happens. Crossdressers (who are cisgender men dressed female) use the bathroom they present as. I cannot even count the number of times it’s happened and I’ve been present. The worst I’ve seen happen is a group of other lesbians roll their eyes and say things to the effect of “as long as he knows the sink isn’t a urinal.” > > Now if this man dressed as a woman goes into the women’s room and starts propositioning women, or harassing them? Yeah, I’ve seen it once or twice with a really drunk crossdresser. The bouncer/manager goes in and gets them, and out they go. That’s how the system should work. > > (the same thing happened with my friend S, a cisgender butch lesbian who got outrageously drunk one night and went into the men’s room (dressed male), and started harassing men.) So . . . Everyone minded their own business unless someone started harassing people? What a novel idea! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/326 "2016-04-29T17:13:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t have a problem showering with the women folk, the men folk (not my first preference sorry sensitive flowers) As has already been explained to you, nobody cares what your showering **preferences** are, as long as the people you’re showering with have **consented** to shower with you. When you brag about being willing to pretend to be a transwoman in order to **deceive** unconsenting women into showering with you, that’s when you start taking some heat for it. It’s not just “sensitive flowers” who don’t like sex offenders. > [@octopus](#): > > But who am I to dictate to others their comfort levels? That’s a level of arrogance I’ll reserve for the left. Nah, it’s the conservatives in this case who are dictating the comfort levels of others. We liberals are simply standing up for the rights of transgender people to use the facilities appropriate to the gender they identify with. Comfort and discomfort are irrelevant in this situation. Respect for human rights should not be dependent on what your “comfort level” is. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/327 "2016-04-29T17:43:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As has already been explained to you, nobody cares what your showering **preferences** are, as long as the people you’re showering with have **consented** to shower with you. > > When you brag about being willing to pretend to be a transwoman in order to **deceive** unconsenting women into showering with you, that’s when you start taking some heat for it. It’s not just “sensitive flowers” who don’t like sex offenders. > > Nah, it’s the conservatives in this case who are dictating the comfort levels of others. We liberals are simply standing up for the rights of transgender people to use the facilities appropriate to the gender they identify with. Comfort and discomfort are irrelevant in this situation. Respect for human rights should not be dependent on what your “comfort level” is. Fascinating point of view. It requires consent of the others for the presence to be legit? So a democratically enacted bill that basically states consent ain’t giving for these particular people is illegitimate in what way? Remember consent is what makes it legitimate according to you. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/328 "2016-04-29T18:49:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Fascinating point of view. Legal fact. [QUOTE=octopus] It requires consent of the others for the presence to be legit? [/quote] It requires consent of others for **sexual activities** to be legit. People who use gendered facilities such as locker-room showers **for their intended purpose** (in this case, washing themselves) are implicitly consenting to share those facilities with other persons of their gender also using the facilities for their intended purpose. But they are **not** thereby giving consent to being ogled or surreptitiously touched or recorded, etc., for **sexual** purposes in those facilities. This holds true whether the sexual offender is a man in disguise, a transwoman, a lesbian, etc. (and similarly for disguised women, gay men, etc., committing criminal acts of voyeurism or other sexual offenses in men’s showers). > [@octopus](#): > > So a democratically enacted bill that basically states consent ain’t giving for these particular people is illegitimate in what way? Remember consent is what makes it legitimate according to you. Because the bill is illegitimately denying transgender people the right to use such facilities _even for their intended purposes_, as opposed to sexual purposes. **You do not have to get other occupants’ explicit consent before using facilities appropriate to your gender for their intended purposes.** But you do have to obtain consent before involving other people in your **sexual** activities, no matter where you happen to be. Your combination of ignorance and faulty logic apparently made you believe for a moment that you had some kind of “gotcha” going there, but you were, as usual, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/329 "2016-04-29T19:38:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Legal fact. > It requires consent of others for **sexual activities** to be legit. People who use gendered facilities such as locker-room showers **for their intended purpose** (in this case, washing themselves) are implicitly consenting to share those facilities with other persons of their gender also using the facilities for their intended purpose. But they are **not** thereby giving consent to being ogled or surreptitiously touched or recorded, etc., for **sexual** purposes in those facilities. > > This holds true whether the sexual offender is a man in disguise, a transwoman, a lesbian, etc. (and similarly for disguised women, gay men, etc., committing criminal acts of voyeurism or other sexual offenses in men’s showers). > Because the bill is illegitimately denying transgender people the right to use such facilities _even for their intended purposes_, as opposed to sexual purposes. > > **You do not have to get other occupants’ explicit consent before using facilities appropriate to your gender for their intended purposes.** But you do have to obtain consent before involving other people in your **sexual** activities, no matter where you happen to be. > Your combination of ignorance and faulty logic apparently made you believe for a moment that you had some kind of “gotcha” going there, but you were, as usual, wrong. Illegitimate according to whom? Do we or do we not live in a republic? I don’t know about you but I don’t consider looking at a woman a sexual offense. Sorry that I don’t subscribe to the preposterous idea of “eye rape.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/330 "2016-04-29T20:07:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t know about you but I don’t consider looking at a woman a sexual offense. Do you consider misrepresenting your gender identity by disguising yourself as a woman to deceive women into sharing a _women’s_ shower facility with you, so you can ogle them naked without their consent, to be a sexual offense? Hint: It is. Your personal opinion about whether it is or not doesn’t matter, of course. But it would probably be prudent for you to figure out what actually **does** count as a sexual offense and what doesn’t, before you act on your expressed willingness to “wear a dress to shower with the ladies” in order to enjoy looking at them naked without their consent. Which is, as we keep having to explain to you, a sexual offense. Now, do you need still more help with that concept, or can we return to the **separate** issue of whether it’s illegitimate to deny transgender people the right to use the facilities of the gender they identify with **for their _intended_ purposes?** Please note that such use is **different** from using such facilities for **sexual** purposes like ogling other users without their consent (which is, in case you need reminding again, illegal). ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/331 "2016-04-29T20:52:48Z")
Here is a recent blog post from a non-gender conforming woman about her very real fears for her personal safety: [https://emilycheath.com/2016/04/27/on-restrooms-gender-and-fear/](https://emilycheath.com/2016/04/27/on-restrooms-gender-and-fear/) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/332 "2016-04-29T21:22:40Z")
Just how many people are we talking about here? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/333 "2016-04-29T21:41:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Do you consider misrepresenting your gender identity by disguising yourself as a woman to deceive women into sharing a _women’s_ shower facility with you, so you can ogle them naked without their consent, to be a sexual offense? > > Hint: It is. > > Your personal opinion about whether it is or not doesn’t matter, of course. But it would probably be prudent for you to figure out what actually **does** count as a sexual offense and what doesn’t, before you act on your expressed willingness to “wear a dress to shower with the ladies” in order to enjoy looking at them naked without their consent. Which is, as we keep having to explain to you, a sexual offense. > Now, do you need still more help with that concept, or can we return to the **separate** issue of whether it’s illegitimate to deny transgender people the right to use the facilities of the gender they identify with **for their _intended_ purposes?** > > Please note that such use is **different** from using such facilities for **sexual** purposes like ogling other users without their consent (which is, in case you need reminding again, illegal). And yet you defend deception for the actual act of sex which is a bit more personal than a mere glance. That good ol’ liberal hypocrisy again. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/334 "2016-04-29T21:42:28Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Just how many people are we talking about here? How many of what people? Do you mean, what’s the percentage of transgender people in the population as a whole? If so, it seems to be somewhere around [0.1-0.3 percent](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/upshot/the-search-for-the-best-estimate-of-the-transgender-population.html?_r=0), although that probably somewhat underestimates the total since official data on gender identity (as opposed to birth-assigned sex) is scanty. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/335 "2016-04-29T22:07:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And yet you defend deception for the actual act of sex which is a bit more personal than a mere glance. That good ol’ liberal hypocrisy again. I must have missed the post where “deception for the actual act of sex” was advocated. Could you link please? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/336 "2016-04-29T22:18:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah, I realize it. So? It’s a democracy and those people have a right to their opinion and to enact law. Democracy doesn’t mean popular rule only when it suits your particular point of view. I explained my point of view. Others feel different. Is that not their right? Do you need to be reminded NC’s bathroom law was in responce to Charlotte voting out gender segregation laws. The local Representatives passed LGBT protections and removed the law requiring public accommodations provide gender segregated bathrooms. If Walmart wanted to have unisex bathrooms they could have. Over in the state house the representatives saw a local government doing something they personally disagreed with and move to stop it. For Republicans apparently small local government is best, unless of course it does something they don’t personally like then it’s a terrible thing so they have to use big government to smash local decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/337 "2016-04-29T22:25:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And yet you defend deception for the actual act of sex which is a bit more personal than a mere glance. What?? Nobody here is “defending deception”, for acts of sex or for any other purpose, in any way. (Except perhaps you with your endorsement of wearing a dress and pretending you’re not a man in order to trick women into letting you see them naked.) If what you’re trying to refer to, in your typically muddleheaded rhetorical style, is the issue you brought up previously about transwomen discussing their gender identity history with potential or actual sex partners, **I do not defend and never have defended _deceiving_ anyone about that or any other aspect of one’s sexual history.** If a transwoman is dating a man who believes that she’s birth-assigned female and does not want to date any women who aren’t birth-assigned female, and if she lies to him about it when he states his feelings on the matter and/or directly asks about her gender identity, then **that is dishonest and unfair and I don’t defend it in the least**. What you may be confused about is the part where I pointed out that **a transwoman is not being deceptive simply by dressing and presenting as a woman, or by refusing to discuss her birth gender**. Transwomen are women, and they have just as much right to habitually dress and present as women as other women do. Nor are they obligated in any way to talk about their past. Of course, if a man doesn’t feel sufficiently confident that the woman he’s interested in is not transgender, **he’s under no obligation to date her**. No guy is obligated to date transwomen any more than he’s obligated to date taller women, or tattooed women, or redheaded women, or any other women with characteristics that don’t happen to appeal to him personally. But he is not owed any kind of spontaneous announcement by any transwoman concerning her gender-identity status or history. It’s not deceptive for transgender people to just go about their lives as their preferred gender without proclaiming themselves to be transgender. It’s up to people in general to remember that some percentage of the population is transgender, and any random person you meet or want to date might, with a very small probability, turn out to be transgender. **If you don’t want to date transgender people, it’s _your_ responsibility to avoid it, not _their_ responsibility to protect you from it.** ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/338 "2016-04-29T22:35:07Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What?? Nobody here is “defending deception”, for acts of sex or for any other purpose, in any way. (Except perhaps you with your endorsement of wearing a dress and pretending you’re not a man in order to trick women into letting you see them naked.) > > If what you’re trying to refer to, in your typically muddleheaded rhetorical style, is the issue you brought up previously about transwomen discussing their gender identity history with potential or actual sex partners, **I do not defend and never have defended _deceiving_ anyone about that or any other aspect of one’s sexual history.** > > If a transwoman is dating a man who believes that she’s birth-assigned female and does not want to date any women who aren’t birth-assigned female, and if she lies to him about it when he states his feelings on the matter and/or directly asks about her gender identity, then **that is dishonest and unfair and I don’t defend it in the least**. > What you may be confused about is the part where I pointed out that **a transwoman is not being deceptive simply by dressing and presenting as a woman, or by refusing to discuss her birth gender**. Transwomen are women, and they have just as much right to habitually dress and present as women as other women do. Nor are they obligated in any way to talk about their past. > > Of course, if a man doesn’t feel sufficiently confident that the woman he’s interested in is not transgender, **he’s under no obligation to date her**. No guy is obligated to date transwomen any more than he’s obligated to date taller women, or tattooed women, or redheaded women, or any other women with characteristics that don’t happen to appeal to him personally. But he is not owed any kind of spontaneous announcement by any transwoman concerning her gender-identity status or history. > > It’s not deceptive for transgender people to just go about their lives as their preferred gender without proclaiming themselves to be transgender. It’s up to people in general to remember that some percentage of the population is transgender, and any random person you meet or want to date might, with a very small probability, turn out to be transgender. > > **If you don’t want to date transgender people, it’s _your_ responsibility to avoid it, not _their_ responsibility to protect you from it.** Failure to disclose relevant facts is deceptive regardless of your biased protests. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/339 "2016-04-29T22:40:33Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Failure to disclose relevant facts is deceptive Nonsense. Is it deceptive not to tell your new partner, **when they haven’t asked** , how many sexual partners you’ve had previously? Whether you’ve ever slept with someone of a different race? Whether you’ve ever slept with someone of the same sex? Whether you’ve had an operation for undescended testicle(s)? Whether you’ve had cosmetic surgery to correct a problem with your genitalia? **All these things are “relevant” to one’s sexual history and relationships, but it’s in no way “deceptive” not to volunteer information about them _when you haven’t been asked about them_.** Exactly the same holds true for being transgender. If you **want** to know whether a potential or current partner is transgender, you can ask them. If they won’t answer, then you don’t have to have sex with them. But they are not being deceptive just because they don’t spontaneously announce their transgender status. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/340 "2016-04-29T22:47:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Failure to disclose relevant facts is deceptive regardless of your biased protests. If the relationship hasn’t progressed to the point of discussing happy adult fun times, then it’s not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/341 "2016-04-29T23:18:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nonsense. Is it deceptive not to tell your new partner, **when they haven’t asked** , how many sexual partners you’ve had previously? Whether you’ve ever slept with someone of a different race? Whether you’ve ever slept with someone of the same sex? Whether you’ve had an operation for undescended testicle(s)? Whether you’ve had cosmetic surgery to correct a problem with your genitalia? > > **All these things are “relevant” to one’s sexual history and relationships, but it’s in no way “deceptive” not to volunteer information about them _when you haven’t been asked about them_.** > > Exactly the same holds true for being transgender. If you **want** to know whether a potential or current partner is transgender, you can ask them. If they won’t answer, then you don’t have to have sex with them. But they are not being deceptive just because they don’t spontaneously announce their transgender status. Ok. Point taken. I stand corrected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=18)