# Transgender and public bathrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190 "2016-04-14T16:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/342 "2016-04-30T01:42:05Z")
OK. Sorry I was snappish. ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/343 "2016-04-30T18:07:57Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Biology is a very “shades-of-gray” subject, however sex is one of the most “black-and-white” things there is in biology due to DNA and sexual dimorphism. Of course “shades-of-gray” creeps into biology and you can have individuals with DNA that is not distinctly of one sex or individuals with the DNA of one sex, but the morphology of the other sex. > > However even when shades of gray exist, it doesn’t stop the black and white existing too. Biological sex is still something easily definable, though still, in the sense that a transgender individual may alter their morphology to appear superficially similar to one sex or that there is some evidence that gender-identity may be caused by the morphology of certain structures in the brain, transgenderism touches on the shades of gray. However I think it would be disingenuous to believe that transgenderism confounds biological notions of sex in the same way as XXY-syndrome (for example) does. > > It could be said to be unhelpful as it is looking at people through the same lens with which we might view mice in a laboratory rather than viewing them as human beings. However I don’t think there are any great arguments that it is factually incorrect. I think you’re missing the point that there are people who, for a multitude of different biological reasons, have been told their whole lives “You are a boy” or “You are a girl” and deep down they feel like the label that’s been assigned to them is wrong. Many of them conclude that the opposite label fits better. Many conclude that neither label fits. IMHO, forcing these people to choose “boy” or “girl”, and refusing to admit that “none of the above” even exists as a category, is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is not allowing them to reach their own conclusions and instead forcing them to stick with whatever label was put on their birth certificate by someone who probably didn’t even have all the facts but just made a snap judgment. Try to imagine yourself in this situation. Suppose that, due to some quirk of biology, you had been misidentified at birth. Would you expect people to treat you like a freak because of something that was beyond your control? Or would you hope for a little bit of empathy? I’m with Nava on this one. Gender is a lot more complicated than people think. The whole concept that everyone can fit into one of two categories is a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/344 "2016-04-30T18:50:18Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Just how many people are we talking about here? If we assume that even as little as 0.1% of the US population is transgender, then we’re still talking about approximately **322,000** people. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/345 "2016-04-30T19:17:34Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > I think you’re missing the point that there are people who, for a multitude of different biological reasons, have been told their whole lives “You are a boy” or “You are a girl” and deep down they feel like the label that’s been assigned to them is wrong. Many of them conclude that the opposite label fits better. Many conclude that neither label fits. IMHO, forcing these people to choose “boy” or “girl”, and refusing to admit that “none of the above” even exists as a category, is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is not allowing them to reach their own conclusions and instead forcing them to stick with whatever label was put on their birth certificate by someone who probably didn’t even have all the facts but just made a snap judgment. Try to imagine yourself in this situation. Suppose that, due to some quirk of biology, you had been misidentified at birth. Would you expect people to treat you like a freak because of something that was beyond your control? Or would you hope for a little bit of empathy? > > I’m with Nava on this one. Gender is a lot more complicated than people think. The whole concept that everyone can fit into one of two categories is a fantasy. Whilst what you’ve said is not irrelevant to the subject, you haven’t done a very good job of making your post relevant to anything I said, which is why I’m at a loss to know what answer you expect. You may wish to read the first post which **Nava** quoted to get some context. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/346 "2016-04-30T19:57:21Z")
And the assholes have started. [Woman records man who followed her into Frisco bathroom after questioning her gender](http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/04/woman-records-man-who-followed-her-into-frisco-bathroom-after-questioning-her-gender.html/) Maybe she looks different in life but her photo in the article depicts a rather female looking woman. > [@](#): > > Jessica Rush posted on Facebook that the man came into the bathroom at Baylor Medical Center at Frisco after her because he thought she was a man and he was worried for his mother’s well-being. _He_ entered a bathroom different from his gender(actual and identified) to enforce the law. So is the bigger problem going to be vigilantes? And this isn’t the first time for this lady. > [@](#): > > A woman at a Hobby Lobby once confronted her when she tried to go into the same restroom as the woman’s granddaughter. And a woman at a fitness center once chastised her for going to the women’s locker room before realizing she was a woman. > > “If I do go into the women’s bathroom, then I clearly identify as a woman **whether I’m trans or not — which I’m not, and I don’t plan to be,”** Rush told WFAA. “I just think everybody just needs to kind of stay to themselves and don’t be the bathroom police. ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/347 "2016-04-30T20:28:59Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Whilst what you’ve said is not irrelevant to the subject, you haven’t done a very good job of making your post relevant to anything I said, which is why I’m at a loss to know what answer you expect. You may wish to read the first post which **Nava** quoted to get some context. You said biological sex is “easily definable”. I am disagreeing with that statement. I also disagree with your statement that it’s “disingenuous to believe that transgenderism confounds biological notions of sex in the same way as XXY-syndrome (for example) does.” I don’t think that’s disingenuous at all. Both transgender and intergender people are coping with forces of biology which affected their early development in ways they couldn’t control. Is it your opinion that transgender people CHOOSE to feel like they are trapped in the wrong body, and therefore you classify them as fundamentally different from intergender people? You said that having shades of grey doesn’t deny the existence of black and white. I don’t think that accurately describes the reality of gender. I submit that there are, in reality, very few people who are 100% male or 100% female (although I’d admit that the majority might be 99% and only a tiny fraction are close to 50-50). For example, we like to think that men have facial hair and women don’t but the truth is that lots and lots of women have a few whiskers which they pluck periodically. I’ll agree that Nava’s post #304 doesn’t seem to be directly addressing your post #300, but that’s got nothing to do with me. I have no problem with what you said in post #300. I’m disagreeing with what you said in post #308. I apologize for implying that you lack empathy. I happen to think there are lots of people in the world who do seem to lack empathy, but I have no reason to believe that you’re one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/348 "2016-04-30T23:27:29Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > You said biological sex is “easily definable”. I am disagreeing with that statement. > > I also disagree with your statement that it’s “disingenuous to believe that transgenderism confounds biological notions of sex in the same way as XXY-syndrome (for example) does.” I don’t think that’s disingenuous at all. Both transgender and intergender people are coping with forces of biology which affected their early development in ways they couldn’t control. Is it your opinion that transgender people CHOOSE to feel like they are trapped in the wrong body, and therefore you classify them as fundamentally different from intergender people? > > You said that having shades of grey doesn’t deny the existence of black and white. I don’t think that accurately describes the reality of gender. I submit that there are, in reality, very few people who are 100% male or 100% female (although I’d admit that the majority might be 99% and only a tiny fraction are close to 50-50). For example, we like to think that men have facial hair and women don’t but the truth is that lots and lots of women have a few whiskers which they pluck periodically. > > I’ll agree that Nava’s post #304 doesn’t seem to be directly addressing your post #300, but that’s got nothing to do with me. I have no problem with what you said in post #300. I’m disagreeing with what you said in post #308. > > I apologize for implying that you lack empathy. I happen to think there are lots of people in the world who do seem to lack empathy, but I have no reason to believe that you’re one of them. Biological sex is a scientific concept, it’s a very sound one and it is key in understanding biology. In humans biological sex is almost always determined by genetics with females XX chromosomes and males carrying XY chromosomes. Though also important is how these genes express themselves, mainly with regard to reproductive organs; secondary sexual characteristics of course can’t be ignored, but as a species humans have a medium-to-low (compared to related species) level of sexual dimorphism. For the most part whether someone is biologically male or female is as clear as the difference between black and white, but there are a few genetic disorders where that classification becomes less simple. For example in XXY syndrome(s) clearly confounds simple genetic sexual classification and can also confound classification based on the expression of their genes. There are also people who are genetically male or female, but are phenotypically the opposite sex (although they are invariably sterile) due to genetic disorders. However none of this destroys the concept of biological sex as a good scientific concept, just as the existence of dawn and dusk doesn’t undermine the concept of day and night. Aside from those with known genetic disorders, studies have consistently shown that transsexuals tend to have certain structures in their brains that are more similar to the sex they identify with than their biological sex, though the cause of this is unclear. However this really doesn’t confound biological sex as such individuals are genetically and phenotypically of definite sex, though it is possible, even likely, that in terms of the “extended phenotype” there is ambiguity. As I said though this is perhaps viewing humans almost in the same way as viewing lab rats. Clearly transsexuals strongly (at least for the most part) identify with a certain sex and the idea that they might be “trying it on” is laughable. Neither are scientific concepts a basis on which to treat actual people: for example treating someone who identifies as male as female because they are genetically the latter would be to elevate (or demote, depending on your pov) genetics to the status of a religion. This is why there has been a push to (at least partially) separate the sociological notion of gender from the biological notion of sex. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/349 "2016-05-02T14:34:39Z")
Can anyone in favor of restroom policing envision a future in high incidents like this become commonplace? — [Police Refuse to Believe Lesbian Is a Woman, Force Her Out Of Bathroom](http://jezebel.com/police-refuse-to-believe-lesbian-is-a-woman-force-her-1773733431) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/350 "2016-05-02T14:47:45Z")
I wish all the stories on that video weren’t headlining it “lesbian.” That has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/351 "2016-05-02T19:42:17Z")
American Family Association admits that they are planting men in the women’s rooms at Target. > **[Anti-LGBT Activists 'Testing' Target By Sending Men Into Women's Rooms |...](https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/anti-lgbt-activists-testing-target-by-sending-men-into-womens-rooms/)** > > UPDATED  It turns out that anti-LGBT activists are right that men are taking advantage of a transgender-inclusive policy at Target to go into women’s ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/352 "2016-05-02T19:49:00Z")
how jolly. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/353 "2016-05-02T20:56:22Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > American Family Association admits that they are planting men in the women’s rooms at Target. > > [Anti-LGBT Activists 'Testing' Target By Sending Men Into Women's Rooms | Right Wing Watch](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/anti-lgbt-activists-testing-target-sending-men-womens-rooms) What the hell is this supposed to prove? That men can go into women’s bathrooms? Couldn’t they do that since, I don’t know, women’s bathrooms were created? I don’t understand how people can actually think this proves something :smack: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/354 "2016-05-02T21:13:28Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What the hell is this supposed to prove? That men can go into women’s bathrooms? Couldn’t they do that since, I don’t know, women’s bathrooms were created? > > I don’t understand how people can actually think this proves something :smack: By making women even more uncertain that the “man” who just entered is really transgender. Bolster the argument that men will stalk women( and little kids) with impunity. The whole idea is to create more pressure for restrictive laws. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/355 "2016-05-02T21:26:29Z")
“If those perverts won’t force their way into the Ladies Room and engage in their Satanic perversions . . . then by Jesus’ Holy Name we’ll just have to do it for them!” CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/356 "2016-05-03T09:43:08Z")
Well, the Baby Jesus is not likely to be traumatized by the sight of people’s intimate bits. After all, He made them! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/357 "2016-05-04T00:30:19Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > American Family Association admits that they are planting men in the women’s rooms at Target. > > [Anti-LGBT Activists 'Testing' Target By Sending Men Into Women's Rooms | Right Wing Watch](http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/anti-lgbt-activists-testing-target-sending-men-womens-rooms) I’ve met members of the AFA in real life, face to face. They are truly scary, fanatical people who just give you the creeps talking to them. In some ways they bother me more than the Westboro Baptist Church clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/358 "2016-05-04T05:25:47Z")
The SPLC classifies both as hate groups. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/359 "2016-05-04T22:32:06Z")
The Justice Department has notified North Carolina that HB2 violates federal civil rights laws, and he has until Monday to provide evidence that the state will not implement the law. > **[US Justice Department: HB2 violates Civil Rights Act](https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article75601912.html)** > > Ruling could ultimately lead to the loss of billions in federal education money ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/360 "2016-05-04T22:56:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Can anyone in favor of restroom policing envision a future in high incidents like this become commonplace? — [http://jezebel.com/police-refuse-to-believe-lesbian-is-a-woman-force-her-1773733431](http://jezebel.com/police-refuse-to-believe-lesbian-is-a-woman-force-her-1773733431) I suspect for many, they would be happy with this result, because that is the actual point of the legislation; To enable them to hassle anyone that they think looks in any way “different”, according to their narrow little world-views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=17)