# Transgender and public bathrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190 "2016-04-14T16:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/121 "2016-04-17T18:08:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Yeah…we’re all playing the “long con.” :rolleyes: Czarcasm was confused. He was replying to a post about a idea to convert \*all \*restrooms to Unisex restrooms, and the possible problems that could arise as some restrooms are connected to showers and lockers/changing room. The issue wasnt _trans-people_ perving but _anyone_ perving and if anyone doesnt think a High School age boy is gonna perv on HS Girls using the showers they are sadly mistaken. But obviously you didnt read the thread, either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/122 "2016-04-17T18:09:27Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I’m really confused by people’s arguments that try to compare this to racism. The two things are definitely NOT the same. Racism is wrong because it stigmantizes people based on their skin color, which they do not choose and has nothing to do with their behavior. Transgendered people do choose their behavior. Using the wrong bathroom is a choice they make. Dressing in the wrong clothes is a choice they make. They have an obligation to meet the standard and they choose not to. “The wrong clothes”? You mean like when young ladies saunter into public in **pantaloons**? The world is going to hell, young sirrah! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/123 "2016-04-17T18:10:10Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/124 "2016-04-17T18:11:28Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I work for the military. The expectations for men and women are exceedingly clear. If I show up and the First Sergeant says, “Barracks One is for males and Barracks Two is for females,” everybody goes to their assigned barracks. They don’t stand around debating whether they feel like they belong in a different room, or if they feel like a man trapped in a woman’s body, or if they would much prefer to wear a woman’s uniform and show up with their hair in a bun. [As of next month, the US military will recognize transgender people according to their preferred gender.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/25/military-transgender-ban-set-end-next-may/32345385/) > [@Chihuahua](#): > > Racism is wrong because it stigmantizes people based on their skin color, which they do not choose and has nothing to do with their behavior. And transphobia stigmatizes people based on their gender identity, which they do not choose and has nothing to do with their behavior. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/125 "2016-04-17T18:13:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Czarcasm was confused. He was replying to a post about a idea to convert \*all \*restrooms to Unisex restrooms, and the possible problems that could arise as some restrooms are connected to showers and lockers/changing room. I was? News to me. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/126 "2016-04-17T18:23:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I was? News to me. I am being nice to assume you were confused and hadnt read the posts you were replying to, as the alternative is not very nice. As I said: \*You’re not reading the thread. Look, I was responding to Dinsdale who was suggesting “all bathrooms are unisex”. I pointed out that in some buildings the lockers, changing rooms and showers are attached to the bathrooms. I am not that concerned with transgendered individuals using said unisex lockers, changing rooms and showers- I am concerned with any person of the opposite sex. The two (me and Dinsdale) of us were discussing converting all restrooms to unisex. I care not a whit about transgendered individuals using whatever bathroom they feel most comfortable with. Perfectly OK by me. Why not actually, you know, read the posts before responding in a knee jerk agrro fashion? \* I dont see how your snarky comments could have arose out of actually reading the exchange between Dinsdale and me unless you were either confused or being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/127 "2016-04-17T18:53:02Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > They have an obligation to meet the standard and they choose not to. You still haven’t explained why anyone is obligated to meet this standard. I’m also curious about the idea of people wearing the “wrong” clothes. **Left Hand of Dorkness** joked about it, but there’s a good point to be made there. Within living memory, the idea of a woman wearing pants was considered scandalous. The idea of a woman in trousers was met with, well, pretty much the exact sort of doom crying that you engage in later in this post: break down of society, young people being idle, cats and dogs living together. Really, it’s strikingly similar. Now, I’m assuming you don’t think [this](http://manrepeller.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1414785966396_Image_galleryImage_Mandatory_Credit_Photo_by.jpg) is a sign of the breakdown of western civilization. Right? Women wear pants, and it’s not a big deal. All those people freaking out about it back in the day look really silly, now. Right? So, why are your concerns more substantial than theirs? When people though women wearing pants was a great scandal, they were wrong. Now, you’re arguing that men wearing dresses in a great scandal. Why are you right, and the people who were freaking out over women in pants wrong? How is your argument fundamentally different from theirs? > [@](#): > > I think a huge part of the reason we have so many problems nowadays is that we refuse to impose to prescribe any standards on young people. And I’m not the only one. Gender-neutral education and an overall lack of social standards is a big part of what creates anomie and dissatisfaction in our world. We refuse to ask anything of anyone, who we end up with an entire generation of directionless young people who don’t know what is expected of them. So, hey, no problem, sit around smoking dope and jacking off all day long if you’d like, because nobody cares what you do or what you achieve, and there is no good or bad or right or wrong. We absolutely refuse to teach people what is expected upon them and then we wonder why we have overflowing prisons and school shootings and all the other bullshit we have to put up with. The irony here is that virtually every trans person I know works in a STEM field. Which, as we all know, has historically been the mark of a lazy and undirected mind. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/128 "2016-04-17T19:13:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [As of next month, the US military will recognize transgender people according to their preferred gender.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/25/military-transgender-ban-set-end-next-may/32345385/) Okay, fuck. Forget it. And here I thought the Army was the last insitution on earth that actually had some goddamned standards. > [@](#): > > And transphobia stigmatizes people based on their gender identity, which they do not choose and has nothing to do with their behavior. > > Get it? No. No, I do not get it. When I wake up in the morning, I see my wife’s clothes and I see my clothes. I CHOOSE which clothes I wear, and I do so in accordance with the expectations society places on me. When I go to the bathroom, I have a CHOICE between which bathroom I use, and I CHOOSE to use the correct bathroom because I am a rational, functioning adult. Whether I LIKE my gender, or whether I think I SHOULD be a different gender has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to read the sign on the door and comply with the instructions. That is a CHOICE that I made, because I control my own behavior. And yes, I have known transgendered people in my life. I knew a woman who impersonated a man. She cut her hair short, wore men’s clothes, and took male hormone treatments. But she continued to use the woman’s bathroom because… and here’s the important part… She wasn’t _really_ a man. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/129 "2016-04-17T19:16:52Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > And yes, I have known transgendered people in my life. I knew a woman who impersonated a man. A transgendered person is not “impersonating” anything. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/130 "2016-04-17T19:22:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A transgendered person is not “impersonating” anything. She was not man. She was pretending to be a man. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/131 "2016-04-17T19:24:01Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I CHOOSE which clothes I wear, and I do so in accordance with the expectations society places on me. And we are in the process of changing that standard because we realize it has no rational basis and it harms people for no good reason. That’s what civilization does. > [@](#): > > That is a CHOICE that I made, because I control my own behavior. And that standard is a choice society makes and now there are enough people who disagree to push society into making a different choice. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/132 "2016-04-17T19:24:57Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > She was not man. She was pretending to be a man. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Obviously it seems cut and dried to you. You’re unconcerned with what’s actually going on, instead stuck on whether wimmin is wearing bloomers or whatever. As you can see, even the US military is recognizing that the standards you propose are irrational–but confronted with that, rather than admit that you might be wrong, you’ve relegated the US military to the same status as a bunch of slack millennials getting high and jacking off. Maybe, just maybe, **you’re wrong about this**. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/133 "2016-04-17T19:46:22Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Okay, cool. So if I “choose” to be a nudist and walk down the street waving my dick at people that’s okay? Or if I just “choose” to drive on the wrong side of the road because, hey, that’s my choice and nobody has the right to tell me how to live?.. > [@Chihuahua](#): > > I’m really confused by people’s arguments that try to compare this to racism. The two things are definitely NOT the same. … But those who compare this non-issue to walking down the street with one’s dick out are just talking good ol’ common sense, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/134 "2016-04-17T21:31:32Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Transgendered people do choose their behavior. Using the wrong bathroom is a choice they make. Dressing in the wrong clothes is a choice they make. They have an obligation to meet the standard and they choose not to. Incorrect. Start reading WPATH7 and work your way from there for evidence of a physical difference between transgender and cisgender people’s brains. Or try [this](http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/). > [@](#): > > Now, I get it, they have psychiatric problems that make them believe they belong in a “different body” or that they “should be” a different gender. That’s fine. You’re allowed to think any stupid thing you want. I don’t LIKE doing physical exercise, but I run my ass off three times a week because I want to meet the standard. You really don’t have any facts on this, do you? Physicians, psychiatrists, researchers, etc. tried for decades to find a “cure” for transgender people. Since the late 1800’s, in fact. Consistently and persistently the only “cure” was found to be transition to the gender which aligned with the brain gender. The incredibly negative and even life-threatening consequences of disallowing transgender people to transition are also well-researched and documented. Transition overwhelmingly leads to [a better quality of life](http://transascity.org/quality-of-life-in-treated-transsexuals/) for the subject - barring the negative effects of bigotry, intolerance, and discrimination, exactly as you are parading around in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/135 "2016-04-17T21:35:21Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > She was not man. She was pretending to be a man. Seems pretty cut and dried to me. I guess for those who don’t have any education on the issue, nor any reasoning ability. Going to answer those who are questioning you about womenfolk wearing trousers? I mean by your own definition that’s something that should be disallowed, right? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/136 "2016-04-17T21:41:26Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > \ > > I think a huge part of the reason we have so many problems nowadays is that we refuse to impose to prescribe any standards on young people. And I’m not the only one. Gender-neutral education and an overall lack of social standards is a big part of what creates anomie and dissatisfaction in our world. We refuse to ask anything of anyone, who we end up with an entire generation of directionless young people who don’t know what is expected of them. So, hey, no problem, sit around smoking dope and jacking off all day long if you’d like, because nobody cares what you do or what you achieve, and there is no good or bad or right or wrong. We absolutely refuse to teach people what is expected upon them and then we wonder why we have overflowing prisons and school shootings and all the other bullshit we have to put up with. > > \ “Societal standards” that require people to suffer their entire lives pretending to be something they’re not are evil and deserve to be ignored. Fuck that kind of standard. Do you think letting LGBT live their lives openly is another violation of the proper standards? How about women getting to be fully-realized members of society? Letting non-Christians practice their faith (or lack of it) openly? Keeping races from mixing in commercial establishments and social relationships? At what point in the past do societal standards become what you consider to be wrong? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/137 "2016-04-17T21:54:14Z")
Yo, **Chihuahua** …are homosexual guys only \*pretending \*to like men? Like, yanno, if they only _tried_ hard enough, they’d realize they really prefer women? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/138 "2016-04-17T22:15:06Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The standard is that you dress and act like the correct gender. There’s an “incorrect” gender? > [@](#): > > If you are really, truly confused by this concept, open pants and look down. Problem solved. What if I’m wearing a skirt instead of pants? What if my spouse is wearing his kilt instead of pants? Which bathroom do intersex people use, or do they have to flip a coin each time? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/139 "2016-04-17T22:20:39Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Which bathroom do intersex people use, or do they have to flip a coin each time? PSSSHT! The real world conforms to one’s simplistic societal standards, dontchaknow? Hard cases like intersex don’t actually EXIST! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190/140 "2016-04-17T22:29:19Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > No. No, I do not get it. When I wake up in the morning, I see my wife’s clothes and I see my clothes. I CHOOSE which clothes I wear, and I do so in accordance with the expectations society places on me. So… when I grab one of my spouse’s t-shirts because I need a clean one and haven’t done the laundry yet this week I’m contributing to the end of civilization? When my landlord ripped his jeans fixing the roof and I lent him a pair of mine so he wouldn’t be arrested for indecent exposure he was contributing to the end of civilization? You know, I can’t recall if I bought my winter coat in the men’s or the women’s department at the store. Does Carhartt even make separate men’s and women’s clothes? Honestly, I wasn’t paying attention at the time, I was looking for something warm to wear. Frankly, if you want to get wild and naughty one night and put on your wife’s clothes I really wouldn’t care one way or the other. > [@](#): > > Whether I LIKE my gender, or whether I think I SHOULD be a different gender has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to read the sign on the door and comply with the instructions. That is a CHOICE that I made, because I control my own behavior. Do you have a problem with unisex bathrooms? If the sign on the door indicated any urinary-genital configuration was welcome would that be a problem for you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-and-public-bathrooms/752190.md?page=8)