And your definition of woman and man are binding on the rest of the world based on what authority?
I’ve used bathrooms near women. I’m not bothered. But I can see there being a problem if 3-4 men who all decide to pee or shower in the women’s locker room not being acceptable for most women.
Ok, perhaps we both overreacted. Sorry. :smack:
The rhetoric by conservatives and Republicans is beyond contempt, but like legalizing Gay marriage, the solution is education. There’s a lot of people out there who just have a kneejerk reaction to this and need to be educated. Of course, the bigots will hate, anyway.
:rolleyes: There’s a hell of a lot of physical difference in terms of strength and aggression between women and women, for that matter.
But even conservatives seem to have given up by now on the concern-trolling about big strong lusty bull-dyke lesbians* sharing bathrooms or showers with petite fragile little teenage princesses. Even though we know that lesbians are by definition sexually attracted to other women, we as a culture seem to have agreed (with good reason) that lesbians and straight women/girls can share bathrooms without serious risk of harm.
So why on earth are so many people still fussing about the notion of transwomen sharing bathrooms with non-trans women? Particularly since there are far fewer transwomen than lesbians, and AFAIK most transwomen aren’t even sexually attracted to other women?
If it’s not scary for women’s restrooms to admit vagina-having women who enjoy eating pussy, many of whom are quite big and strong and/or aggressive, then I don’t see why it’s supposed to be scary for them to also admit the tiny minority of women who happen to have penises. Especially when many such women are neither physically intimidating nor attracted to other women.
Do these “men” identify as women? Do they dress and behave and try to appear as women? Do they like being called “she” and “her”, and do they feel comfortable when other people treat them as women?
If so, then they are not men. Actual men do not want to pee or shower in the women’s locker room.
How are you not aware of this? Do you sit around with other men wishing that you were allowed to walk through doors marked “Women”, and that everybody would believe you were women and treat you as women? If not, why do you think that other men are wishing for that? (And if so, have you and your friends ever considered talking to a professional about your gender identity issues?)
According to another thread, it isn’t proven that women would feel uncomfortable with 3-4 gender-typical men being in the women’s room. In fact, none of the women in that thread said they would feel uncomfortable with a man in the women’s room.
So what problem do you see?
Wait, that guy’s a transman? No way!
Do you have a cite for any of this? Not that I’m disbelieving you, just, yeah.
I’d wear a dress to shower with the ladies. The old dudes at the gym are a bit harder on the eyes.
I’ve seen even manlier transmen. Very up close and personal. Oh my.
Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I just commented on the topical issue of conservatives and Republicans constantly demonizing my people. You thought I was responding to you and your proposal for unisex bathrooms despite my not quoting you, nor mentioning you, and started in on me.
Here’s a cite for the general experience of trans people in bathrooms: http://www.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2013/06/25/transgender-people-are-harassed-and-assaulted-in-public-bathrooms-survey-says
I’ve already posted two examples of Sheriff’s boasting that they will assault trans people in their jurisdiction. If you believe that a trans person beaten for using the ‘wrong’ restroom in a county where the chief LEO boasts about wanting to beat them will encounter no bias in the local justice system, I don’t think anything I can find to cite will convince you.
As far as fearing police, here’s a study showing that trans people are much more likely targets for police violence than cis people: http://www.avp.org/storage/documents/2012_mr_ncavp_hvreport.pdf and an article about police bias against trans people: http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2013/10/16/rise-in-transgenderharassmentviolencebypolicelinkedtoprofiling.html
The trans panic defense exists, though I don’t have any specific examples of it being used for bathroom discrimination:
Here’s a long, dry article about the trans panic defense: http://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2377&context=faculty_publications
The ABA voted to try to curtail it’s use in 2013: American Bar Association Votes To Curtail Use Of 'Gay Panic,' 'Trans Panic' Defense | HuffPost Voices?
And California was the first state to specifically ban the defense in 2014: California Becomes First State to Ban Gay, Trans 'Panic' Defenses
Here’s an example “Trans Panic” being used as a defense in 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/25/world/asia/us-marine-joseph-scott-pemberton-testifies-in-transgender-killing-in-philippines.html?_r=0
But surely a guy who would do that is merely an unscrupulous liar and pervy creep, who’s willing to misrepresent his entire gender identity in order to take advantage of a chance to creep on unsuspecting women.
Why should the rights of trans people be trampled on just because unscrupulous liars and pervy creeps might possibly try to imitate trans people in order to indulge in criminal activities?
And I think it might be more difficult than you imagine to actually get away with the criminal activities you’re fantasizing about. You’d have to change into your dress and other feminine accoutrements to drive to the gym, for example, and if anyone you knew happened to see you, they would doubtless think it odd.
You have to give proof of ID for a gym membership, of course, and at some point it’s bound to happen that somebody notices you’re ostensibly a woman with a man’s driver’s license. In fact, as soon as anybody even starts to question your gender-identity status—which is likely to happen quite soon, what with you sporting your hairy ass and creepy boner in the women’s shower and all—your little masquerade is over and you’re facing (richly deserved) arrest and jail time as a sex offender.
In general, I think this kind of “haw haw haw boys will be boys” trivialization of straight cisgender men’s professed readiness to exploit trans acceptance in order to illegally creep on women is not only transphobic but thoroughly misogynistic. It’s not cute, or okay, or excusable for straight cis men to try to intimidate women out of respecting transgender people’s rights by implied threats that non-transgender men, including themselves, will deliberately misuse those rights as an opportunity to commit sex offenses.
I simply asked for a cite for some rather egregious claims. I expressed no skepticism as to the validity of your claims, just desire for citations.
I was going to go with misandristic, on the grounds that it assumes that most men are sex offenders, but I think you’ve got the stronger argument.
I hate to tell you, but some of the ladies aren’t any softer.
Damn, too bad they can’t replicate the, um, “equipment” yet.
Thanks, but there’s no reason it can’t be both! The “straight cis men would happily impersonate transwomen if it made sex-offending easier to get away with” argument is offensive and derogatory to pretty much any group of people who aren’t fundamentally horrible.
Trans people need to have the right ID to use the changeroom of their choice? What if they haven’t managed to change their driver’s license yet?
It is quite possible to make someone uncomfortable in subtle, hard-to-prove ways. It’s much easier to kick someone out of the change room if there is some bright line rule about no men in the women’s change rooms, than if women have to explain how someone was looking at them funny, which of course will be denied, and now the woman feels paranoid and stupid.
I’m not sure there should be legislation either way about this. Gender is convention, and gendered bathrooms are convention, and social convention will stop 99.99% of cis guys from impersonating a woman to gawk in the women’s change room. It’s very hard to craft a law that lets everyone use the bathroom of their gender identity, because gender identity is impossible to police. And what about a trans person who is not fully out? They need the right to use either bathroom, depending on how they are presenting that day. I don’t see how to legally code this without mandating unisex bathrooms
I think most of all people need more education that trans people are not freaks or perverts or anything else horrible and the tall person with the Adam’s apple just wants to go about her business without hurting anyone. Beating people up is never OK, and there are already laws against it. If there is trouble getting those laws enforced, making new laws will not help.
Well, given that octopus has indicated that he is in favor of that kind of bans AND also that he is a pervy creep, apparently the reason is to protect us from octopus. Only, the problem there isn’t any trans anything, it’s a pervy creep!
It’s pretty amazing how many conservatives are willing to admit that they are actually dangerous sexual predators barely held in check.
It’s much like the good ol’ “without the Bible how will atheists know not to rape and murder everyone!?” argument. Uh… I’m going to kindly excuse myself if you don’t mind.