Or to make it more close to home, how about someone from the Straight Dope Message Board?
Should I be forced to go into a men’s room? Setting aside the fact I’m a rape survivor? I’ll bet a lot of conservatives would say “Hay-ell yeah!” :rolleyes:
Yeah…we’re all playing the “long con.” :rolleyes:
How so?
The fact that a man dresses like a woman, or calls himself by a woman’s name, or suffers genital mutilation so that his private parts resemble a vagina, it does not actually make him a woman.
The standard is that you dress and act like the correct gender. Every day I go to work, the women wear women’s clothes and the men wear men’s clothes. I don’t understand why this is so goddamned hard for people to figure out. If you are really, truly confused by this concept, open pants and look down. Problem solved.
Oh, you’re one of those.
Yep. :rolleyes:
Says who?
So your beef isn’t with transgender people using the appropriate restroom.
Your beef is with transgender people existing.
Trust me - they’re not going to go away just because you don’t like the idea.
The question of which bathroom a person uses is just one example of a multitude of behaviors which should be pretty cut-and-dried, and that fact that we are even debating this at all is symptomatic of a culture that has completely the idea of holding people to any kind of behavioral standards or expectations.
My complaint is not so much with whether transgender people exist, but with the broader problem of standards. You, as an individual, improve your behavior to meet the standard. You don’t lower or erase the standards just because a portion of society doesn’t want to comply.
No. In a free democratic society, which this is, you live your life the way you choose to, not based on some nebulous and archaic “standard” of how you’re supposed to behave.
Once upon a time, the “standard” was that blacks rode on the back of the bus and women were to speak only when spoken to.
It was always this “complicated.” It’s just that heterosexuals had such a stranglehold on public policy that transgender people were chronically marginalized. Now they have more of a voice and more visibility, and their rights are finally being respected.
The fact that we’re having this discussion at all is a sign that the United States moving another step closer to the ideals laid out in the Declaration of Independence. It’s a good thing.
Nonsense. The standard we’re holding people to is mind your own goddamn business. Some people are failing to live up to that basic expectation, sure, but that doesn’t mean expectations don’t exist.
No. Just your behavioral standards and expectations. Which are stupid, and which you should reevaluate.
Earlier in another thread, someone pointed out that HB 2 doesn’t actually have any penalties for not obeying the law; nor does the law actually direct people which bathroom to use, instead directing state agencies to set up directives, or something like that. I am confused about how the law actually works, and if anyone here has some insight into what teeth if any the law has, I’d appreciate your help. GQ help, natch :).
You make it sound like they want to rob banks or something. What do we all gain from adhering to your gender standards, other than your personal comfort?
At the heart of a lot of social conservatism is a remarkable lack of empathy. “Why can’t everyone just be normal, LIKE US?” you ask.
Why? What benefit does enforcing a “standard” of gender expression afford us? How does it make us richer, wiser, or happier?
Okay, cool. So if I “choose” to be a nudist and walk down the street waving my dick at people that’s okay? Or if I just “choose” to drive on the wrong side of the road because, hey, that’s my choice and nobody has the right to tell me how to live?
Or does society place upon us a certain set of expectations for proper conduct and behavior that defines what is and is not tolerated?
Because I don’t see why this is a point of confusion. I work for the military. The expectations for men and women are exceedingly clear. If I show up and the First Sergeant says, “Barracks One is for males and Barracks Two is for females,” everybody goes to their assigned barracks. They don’t stand around debating whether they feel like they belong in a different room, or if they feel like a man trapped in a woman’s body, or if they would much prefer to wear a woman’s uniform and show up with their hair in a bun.
There probably are people in the formation who have these kind of thoughts, but when the time comes to execute they shut the fuck up and keep their personal psychiatric problems to themselves. It’s their job to perform to expectations, not debate whether the standards should be changed just because they don’t feel like complying.
And I also think it is hilarious that you use the argument about this being a democratic society. A “democracy” means if 51% of the voters say stick to your own fucking latrine, that’s the law, and you can quit whining about it.
Peeing in a different bathroom stall is not equivalent to taking your dick out in public. In many ways it’s quite the opposite.
Do you know/have you ever known any transgender people? Lack of actual experience is probably a big component of your anxiety about this.
What do we actually stand to lose by protecting transgender people’s right to use the restroom of their choice?
Chihuahua maybe you should move to north Korea. They enforce state approved hairstyles. You could really have your standards met over there.
It does. And a surprisingly huge number of them turn out to be based on stupidity, ignorance, and outright malice. “Blacks have to use a different water fountain,” was also a part of a set of expectations for proper conduct and behavior that defined what was and was not tolerated. Yeah, society has rules. Pointing that out doesn’t tell us anything useful. Explain why this is a good rule.
There are many things that I don’t understand myself. I find it helps to listen to the people who experience these things to form an informed option.
I’m really confused by people’s arguments that try to compare this to racism. The two things are definitely NOT the same. Racism is wrong because it stigmantizes people based on their skin color, which they do not choose and has nothing to do with their behavior. Transgendered people do choose their behavior. Using the wrong bathroom is a choice they make. Dressing in the wrong clothes is a choice they make. They have an obligation to meet the standard and they choose not to.
Now, I get it, they have psychiatric problems that make them believe they belong in a “different body” or that they “should be” a different gender. That’s fine. You’re allowed to think any stupid thing you want. I don’t LIKE doing physical exercise, but I run my ass off three times a week because I want to meet the standard.
<rant>
I think a huge part of the reason we have so many problems nowadays is that we refuse to impose to prescribe any standards on young people. And I’m not the only one. Gender-neutral education and an overall lack of social standards is a big part of what creates anomie and dissatisfaction in our world. We refuse to ask anything of anyone, who we end up with an entire generation of directionless young people who don’t know what is expected of them. So, hey, no problem, sit around smoking dope and jacking off all day long if you’d like, because nobody cares what you do or what you achieve, and there is no good or bad or right or wrong. We absolutely refuse to teach people what is expected upon them and then we wonder why we have overflowing prisons and school shootings and all the other bullshit we have to put up with.
</rant>
Here are some standards you should try to live up to:
When going to the bathroom, concentrate on your own damn genitals.