Well, there’s latte and then there’s crema.
So basically, you’re saying you’re transgender, you just choose not to have surgery for whatever reason, correct?
(I’m guessing you’re using “female/male” to refer to physical sex and “man/woman” to refer to gender, whether someone is trans or cis, right?)
Here’s my view on it.
When an “average” person says “hey, I’m a male,” they are referring to their gender. Coincidentally, their sex is male, but they’re not directly referring to that any more than answer the question “are you male or female?” would be answer with “XY.”
A transgender person also would answer with their gender - I answer “female.” If a physician asks me, I tell them I’m a transsexual woman, so they know that I was not born with a normal, XX female body. (the fact that I’m officially intersex can be ignored for the purpose of this conversation)
When someone asks “what’s your sex,” therefore, they almost always mean “what’s your gender,” unless they are asking clinically, or into asking you personal biological questions. And one would answer, normally, with their gender.
I simply don’t see this as difficult.
Morris, like me, IS a transsexual, in that she has undergone hormonal and surgical correction of her body. Transgender is an umbrella term. I almost always tell people I am a “transsexual” because I want to be specific about it.
Yeah, and yeah.
Well, there are other transgender people who choose not to have surgery for reasons different from my reasons: they can’t afford it or they’ve invested in a life (kids etc) that would be disrupted if they transitioned surgically so they don’t, etc. My reason is that my body isn’t any more “wrong” than my gender, they just aren’t the expected combo.
The definition of “transgender” does apply to me though. The main reason I don’t use it is that “transsexual” has somehow fallen out of favor (I’ve been rebuked for using it) and people have, as a consequence, started using “transgender” to mean “transsexual”.
And here I go making it more complicated than it needs to be. Your version is shorter and more to the point.
It’s a lot easier to communicate when you have words that mean specifically what you want to say 
That’s what you get for going to Starbuck’s instead of getting a tastier Seattle’s Best at Burger King. It’s still not Superior, like you get at a proper Greek joint, or Maxwell House at home, but I can choke it down.
I just go with what the person presents as, and if that’s not obvious, I give thanks that in English second-person personal pronouns are gender-neutral. Please note, though, that I’m the guy who didn’t figure out that his daughter’s live-in boyfriend of several years was plumbed female. He presents male, and I didn’t give it a second thought.
However, ain’t this world grand that people can be who they feel they are, and that surgery has improved since Jan Morris had her body customized!
Personally I think it’s gauche, but pissed off?
I reserve being pissed off for the cases where gender-variant and transgender workers who get verbally and physically abused by pissed-off customers, suffer job discrimination or abuse on the job from their co-workers and supervisors, and are fired for their gender identity and expression. Like my friend Traci, who was fired from her job as a waitress because pissed off customers told the manager that they didn’t want one of them thar’ trannies contaminating their food. Out of work and with no other better options, Traci was forced to move in with a boyfriend who physically abuses her when he drinks. Last week Traci attempted suicide. Yay, discrimination.
In the future, just ignore the signs in the same way you ignore the t-shirts people wear. Or call the person on it - “so, what is your gender, since you opened the dialogue?” (which FTR is what I would have done, but then being what I am I also get a pass on potentially offending other LGBTQIA persons) It’s possible they really didn’t think through the ramifications of making a public statement like that in a workplace environment.
This is very often overlooked. I long ago gave up any ideas of transitioning simply because I didn’t consider the end result to be worth the time, pain and money. I just came to accept that my body was not the way I’d prefer it to be, but that there was nothing to be done about it. Ah well, move on, learn to live with it. There’s plenty of people worse off than me (amputees, burn victims, etc) who tolerate living with bodies I am sure they would rather were different.
You are totally correct: using sex and gender interchangeably makes communication confusing, if not impossible. I cannot imagine how many confusing conversations this will cause:
Woman 1: “I’m a transgender woman.”
Woman 2: “Oh, so you were born male?”
Woman 1: “No, female.”
Woman 2: “Oh…then I guess I don’t understand why you’re ‘transgender.’”
Woman 1: “Because I have a penis.”
Woman 2: “That’s what I asked.”
Woman 1: “No, you didn’t.”
Woman 2: “Who’s on first?”
Dear AEHunter3, the fucking fuck is that one and the same word can be used in different senses by different people in different situations. Nothing more than that. When they ask for “gender” on a form, I put F. When they ask for “sex,” I put F. The choice of term makes little or no difference to me in daily practical applications. In theory I would be more inclined to draw finer distinctions, but I’m not doing theory.
You sound like you comport with the genderqueer spectrum. The symposium we’ve been having around those two multivalent words has really clarified for me a lot the different ways these words look from genderqueer standpoint vs. the transsexual. I think I understand better how from a genderqueer standpoint, bright-lining the distinction between sex and gender might be essential. I could see how it could feel like an assault on the foundation of genderqueer’s principles. We just see it from different points of view, mon vieux. I certainly don’t want to assail any genderqueer identity. No harm, no foul?
My identity is just woman, no more and no less. I avoid the word *transgender *because it’s poorly defined and causes endless confusion among the LGBT and also straight worlds. I’ll use the word *trans *because it’s pretty much what trans people call themselves among each other. Most often I see “transgender” used for interface with the cis world and among cis peoples too. Trans is an annotation in my medical history, is all. I suffered from a lifelong problem and I got it treated. I finally got enough of the right hormone to work well with my female brain; it was like driving on a rutted, rock-strewn road and then getting onto a smooth, newly paved highway.
For me, the most accurate term of all would be CAMAB—coercively assigned male at birth.
No, it’s more like this in real life, where people demand you to prove yourself to them, and ask embarrassing questions which they would be livid over if the same was asked of them.
Me: “I’m a transgender woman.”
Woman 1: “Oh yeah, I know some gay people.”
Me: “Um, cool. But being transgender doesn’t mean you’re gay (leaving aside my being lesbian/bi). It means I’ve changed genders legally, socially, and otherwise.”
Woman 1: “Oh, so you were born male?”
Me: (sigh) “Yes, I have a male birth certificate.”
Woman 1: “Oh. Why did you want to be transgender?'”
Me: (theories abound, but the best evidence says it’s due to hormonal problems between the 8th and 20th week of pregnancy, and other theories claim that it’s caused by exposure of pregnant women to some natural and artificial endogenous chemicals) “Because that’s how I was born. I’ve known I had a female mind since I was about 8.”
Woman 1: “Like, what does that even mean? How do you know you’re a girl inside?”
Me: (good grief) “First, can you tell me how you know you’re a woman inside?”
Woman 1: “Um, duh, I was born that way.”
Me: “So was I.”
Woman 1: “No you weren’t.”
Me: “So you can’t ‘prove’ you’re a woman any more than I can.”
Woman 1: (takes offense) “I don’t have to prove anything to you. Look right here. (points to her breasts) These are real, bay-be.”
Me: “Yes, I have those too. I’ve had them since I was 13 because I’m intersex.”
Woman 1: “Huh. OK. Suuuuuure.”
Woman 2: (approaches) “Hi! I’ve heard about you and wanted to meet you, Una!”
Me: (brightening) “Oh hello, thank you.”
Woman 2: “Sooo…what was it like to get it chopped off? Did they give you what they didn’t use in a jar to take home? My dad still has his appendix in a jar…”
Me: “Where’s the bar, again?”
“I’d like the opinion of a real man as to the type of coffee to buy.”
“Would you characterize this as a ‘girlie’ drink, and, if so, how do you feel qualified to make that determination?”
“Hey, where’d the insert pronoun here who took my order go?”
Yeah, that’s pretty lame. Maybe they could wear nametags or something? If they want to remain impersonal and avoid stalkers, they could assign themselves numbers, or code-names. “Where’s Badger today?” “On vacation. I’m Starfire; may I take your order?”
About all I can see as progress here is that it sounds like they’re trying to simplify the definitions down to two simple things: my business and none of my business. If they want me to refer to them using a particular pronoun, they use the term that heads me in the right direction. If I want to know what kind of plumbing they’ve got, I need to learn to live with disappointment because it’s none of my business. So by saying that a person who feels she is female uses all female terms for every label that can be applied, that makes a certain amount of sense. When she is dealing with somebody whose business it actually is as to what kind of plumbing is involved (doctor, lawyer, potential intimacy partner), then yeah, it’s time to pull out some more terms and explanations. Otherwise, just take the short form: everybody’s a person. Some people are male, some people are female. Move on.
Yeah, a bit of hyperbole. “Pissed off” is too strong. More a mild, “Really?”.
I mean, it did bug me a bit but nowhere near enough to make a fuss about it. I cared less about this particular instance than what I felt was a larger issue about people wanting to be referenced in a particular way (be it race or gender or whatever) but don’t let you know what that is and getting upset when you get it wrong. If you (general “you”) want to be referred to as the “Purple People Eater” that’s fine by me, just let me know.
“Gauche” is probably the best word for it. Sorry I didn’t think of it.
I am curious about the cases where customers verbally and physically abused an employee.
You mention Traci who was discriminated against by her employer and discrimination is not cool at all and it sucks big time for Traci (really).
But customers abusing an employee? I have no doubt it happens (it’s a big world) but I would be curious as to the circumstances. As I said before I am not sure an employee/customer interaction is the place to berate someone for calling you “miss” when you want to be a “mister”. Calling the customer out for their mistake is probably not a good idea. If you are in that business I think you need to deal with those mistakes with a smile and silence.
To be clear: I am NOT advocating violence or even shitty behavior. Just saying do not pick a confrontation when in a customer service job. It is not the time or place for educating people on this topic.
All that said if a customer takes it upon themselves to lay into an employee who is just doing their job then yeah…customer is an asshole and deserves to be berated.
Please note that as a community activist and counselor, I see or it’s brought to my attention all the times someone wants to talk about it. Also, our legal team who I work with is another draw. So we see the cases which don’t make the newspapers.
And I can give you circumstances, but it’s just a bunch of anecdotes. One person pushed into a rack of clothes by a customer who didn’t want “a tranny” helping her in the women’s clothing section (note she deliberately did NOT work in the changing rooms, by her own choice, not her employer (who was fine with everything)). Another worked at a Pizza Hut and had to leave because co-workers were grabbing her breasts to see “if they were real,” and when she complained to her boss he said (wrongly) “you’re a man; it’s not sexual assault to grab your chest.” One who worked at a chain upscale restaurant had a woman run up and pull her (natural) hair hard, ripping it out and throwing her off her feet. Her reason? “I wanted to see if it was real.” followed by “I thought you was a tranny.”
In terms of verbal abuse…the mind boggles at how many cases. Most of them involve co-workers or customers or managers deliberately and consistently misgendering and dead-naming transpeople, even in front of customers or clients. The “tranny” word is used sometimes. As is “freak,” “shemale,” and in one case “Tim Curry.” :rolleyes:
I suppose I prefer extremely precise terms with those people who want to discuss their status, or whose pants I would like to visit. Unless, say as in the case of Una Persson, we’re having a very in depth discussion of their life and medical issues or I’m talking to somebody who is a prospective sexual partner, there is no point in me knowing more than ‘this person identifies as female’. They inform me, some how, what pronouns they want used and I use them.
I agree with other than it’s simply a semantic issue. Admittedly, the semantics get tricky, because our terms were built based on an oversimplification of reality.
It’s easy to get annoyed when people make communication more complicated by raising issues and injecting their axes to grind. I try to remind myself of what I realized back in the 70’s, when the young women living in the same college housing complained bitterly about sexist terms I and other young men were using. I thought that while they may have had a point, they were overreacting.
But I realized that overreaction is indicative of injury. If I have a sunburnt shoulder and a friend pats me on the back, I overreact. It’s only natural. So, I try to have patience. Same here.
Sure, some people have way too much fun feeling their pain and rubbing our faces in it, but I believe they’re a minority, and easier to tolerate than to fight. There are trolls on any subject, and the best way to deal with trolls is simply not to feed them. Sometimes that comes at the cost of adjusting our terminology. It’s a small price to pay, and most likely the change in terminology does confer a benefit.
It’s tricky when there isn’t a consensus, though. It’s also a nuisance when the terms are clunky. Well, there are worse problems to consider, like whether shorty white socks look silly, worn with shorts, tshirt, and tennis shoes.
How did they even know? Why would that even be a customer’s business?