# Transgender Service Animals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797 "2016-02-22T14:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/1 "2016-02-22T14:26:31Z")
No, not really - I want to compare the debate over transgender use of bathrooms and locker rooms to service animals. I saw a news story about people taking pets around and pretending they are service animals so they can take them on airplanes, in stores and restaurants, etc. > **[States want crackdown on fake service animals](https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/states-want-crackdown-on-fake-service-animals)** I know from previous research that there is no official certification of service animals. The Dept. of Justice guidelines on the Americans with Disabilities Act say that if a someone says their animal is a service animal, it’s legally a service animal and a business must accept it inside. (The most recent guidelines say only dogs qualify and a business may ask if the dog is a service animal, but it must accept the answer “yes” without demanding any kind of documentation to prove it). > **[ADA Requirements: Service Animals](https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm)** > > The Department of Justice published revised final regulations implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) for title II (State and local government services) and title III (public accommodations and commercial facilities) on September 15,... I presume some states want to add some kind of official certification or “doctor’s note” to prove the dog is a service dog. I noticed this is relevant to the transgender debate. The laws allowing for transgender people to use the bathrooms/locker rooms of the gender they identify with. Yet one concern brought up is how we know someone is “legitimately” transgender or just faking it, or how one can determine that. Should there be some kind of doctor’s note, or certification, or whatever, to prevent abuse? Do any of the state laws or policies on transgender accomodation include anything like that? Is it even a problem? This is especially interesting to me because I see a conflict in the issue: If genetic or genital status is no longer a way to determine gender, how can we turn around and say that appearance or mode of dress is? Is it any more unusual for a woman with female genitals to dress and get a haircut and “act like a man?” Can we impose strict ideas about how men and women should dress when we don’t even impose those limits based on genitals? So couldn’t a genetically male person say she identifies as a woman and still wear “men’s” clothes or appear somewhat, or completely, male? My comments do not represent hatred or dislike for transgender people nor opposition to the bathroom laws, so please don’t get all angry. It’s just a discussion about how new ideas bring new questions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/2 "2016-02-22T14:51:29Z")
I don’t know about service animals, but for the bathroom stuff, it’s about self-identification. I don’t believe it should require any sort of documentation. If you self-identify as male or female, whatever your biological sex or appearance, you should be able to use the corresponding restroom, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/3 "2016-02-22T15:01:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know about service animals, but for the bathroom stuff, it’s about self-identification. I don’t believe it should require any sort of documentation. If you self-identify as male or female, whatever your biological sex or appearance, you should be able to use the corresponding restroom, in my view. But that ignores the whole point. Should we demand that someone prove their self-identification? Can it change from day to day? (Some people say they are “genderfluid” and switch identifications frequently.) Are there any such procedures in current laws or policies? Are they needed or is the fear of abuse unwarranted? By your standard, a male, wearing “men’s” clothes and a beard, could walk into a women’s restroom and, if challenged, say “I identify as a female.” My questions are is that a problem, what could be done about it, and is something being done now. And it’s an interesting parallel to the service animal thing. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/4 "2016-02-22T15:01:50Z")
I think the “faking it” problem is a lot like the “voter fraud” problem, in that it’s mostly a hypothetical one meant to act as a reason to create restrictive legislation. I can foresee a not-too-terribly distant future where bathrooms are separated by function rather by gender - one for urinals and one for stalls. In the meanwhile, I personally don’t care if someone with female plumbing wants to use the men’s restroom. Especially since it generally won’t impact my wait at all. Just so long as everyone is following the immutable laws\* of the men’s restroom. \*1) Shut up. 2) Do your business. 3) Shut up. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/5 "2016-02-22T15:12:38Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I think the “faking it” problem is a lot like the “voter fraud” problem, in that it’s mostly a hypothetical one meant to act as a reason to create restrictive legislation. I can foresee a not-too-terribly distant future where bathrooms are separated by function rather by gender - one for urinals and one for stalls. When there is total privacy though, right? So basically like single-use bathrooms. Or do you think there simply won’t be any gender segregation? If so, will it be forced on those who still want it? Or do you mean someday nobody will care any more? > [@](#): > > In the meanwhile, I personally don’t care if someone with female plumbing wants to use the men’s restroom. Especially since it generally won’t impact my wait at all. Just so long as everyone is following the immutable laws\* of the men’s restroom. But this isn’t about just you. What about other people who might care? And what if someone with not just opposite plumbing but opposite-gender appearance - enough for you to know they are the opposite plumbing - uses the bathroom? Or maybe you don’t know - what if someone who has female parts but dresses and acts male uses the women’s room - should they prove they are female? That’s a whole new question. Do transgender people have the right to use the bathroom of their SEX and NOT their self-identified gender if they so choose? And how would you police that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/6 "2016-02-22T15:21:34Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But that ignores the whole point. > > Should we demand that someone prove their self-identification? Can it change from day to day? (Some people say they are “genderfluid” and switch identifications frequently.) Are there any such procedures in current laws or policies? Are they needed or is the fear of abuse unwarranted? In order: No; I don’t know; I don’t think so; and no, the fear of abuse is mostly unwarranted. > [@](#): > > By your standard, a male, wearing “men’s” clothes and a beard, could walk into a women’s restroom and, if challenged, say “I identify as a female.” My questions are is that a problem, what could be done about it, and is something being done now. And it’s an interesting parallel to the service animal thing. Yes this is possible. If such a person truly identifies as female, then I don’t think this is much of a problem. If they’re lying for voyeuristic reasons, or to make some bigoted political point, then it’s a minor problem, and such a person should be shamed, in my view, and prosecuted if they commit any criminal violations like harassment or assault. This sounds like the kind of problem that will probably be so rare, and the consequences so minor, and a possible solution so cumbersome, that it’s not worth legislating about. I don’t see how bathrooms could possibly check documentation for every user before entry. In the very occasional cases of voyeuristic/bigoted asshole liars claiming to be transgender, public shaming (along with prosecution on existing criminal violations, if warranted) seems like the most appropriate response. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/7 "2016-02-22T15:25:40Z")
Is there some sort of fundamental difference between male shit and female shit? Is one sex more prone to leaving cooties on the toilet seat than the other? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/8 "2016-02-22T15:27:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there some sort of fundamental difference between male shit and female shit? Is one sex more prone to leaving cooties on the toilet seat than the other? No but the seat up/seat down war is about to go public. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/9 "2016-02-22T15:28:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In order: No; I don’t know; I don’t think so; and no, the fear of abuse is mostly unwarranted. Gee, thanks for the detailed thoughts. :smack: > [@](#): > > Yes this is possible. If such a person truly identifies as female, then I don’t think this is much of a problem. Once again - how do you KNOW they “truly” identify as female? That’s my question. > [@](#): > > If they’re lying for voyeuristic reasons, or to make some bigoted political point, then it’s a minor problem, and such a person should be shamed, in my view, and prosecuted if they commit any criminal violations like harassment or assault. But if someone says “I really do identify as female,” what then? > [@](#): > > This sounds like the kind of problem that will probably be so rare, and the consequences so minor, and a possible solution so cumbersome, that it’s not worth legislating about. I don’t see how bathrooms could possibly check documentation for every user before entry. In the very occasional cases of voyeuristic/bigoted asshole liars claiming to be transgender, public shaming (along with prosecution on existing criminal violations, if warranted) seems like the most appropriate response. How would even know they are faking though? That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/10 "2016-02-22T15:31:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Especially since it generally won’t impact my wait at all. Have you ever been to a ball game? The line for the womens restroom is always longer than for the mens. I’ve personally been impacted by women taking forever using the trough. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/11 "2016-02-22T15:33:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there some sort of fundamental difference between male shit and female shit? Is one sex more prone to leaving cooties on the toilet seat than the other? Good point. Should we get rid of gendered bathrooms altogether? And if so, must we wait until everyone is okay with it, or, as with transgender access, mandate it now? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/12 "2016-02-22T15:34:25Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No but the seat up/seat down war is about to go public. Not to mention pee all over the seat. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/13 "2016-02-22T15:35:52Z")
Like voter ID laws, it’s just restrictive legislation. “It _could/might one day_ be abused!”, is just the rationalization to impose those restrictions. Solution without a problem really. The very idea that people would pretend to be transgendered, for advantages is beyond silly to me. The thought that a straight, teenaged boy could pull it off, without his friends letting on, is just crazy talk, I think. ---
**Author:** ![brainstall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@brainstall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brainstall)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/14 "2016-02-22T15:36:48Z")
In all my years of public washroom use, I can’t think of a single time this has been an issue. If I came out of a stall and saw a masculine man in the women’s washroom, I might wonder if one of us had made a mistake, or if I was the one walking in to the washroom, I might back out and recheck the signage on the door, and while I would find it odd, I wouldn’t say anything, or do anything other than what I had planned to do in there anyway. If I saw a sexually ambiguous person, I would give it even less thought. As long as no one is being creepy, I really don’t care who is in the stall or standing at the sink washing their hands next to me. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/15 "2016-02-22T15:36:59Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Have you ever been to a ball game? The line for the womens restroom is always longer than for the mens. I’ve personally been impacted by women taking forever using the trough. That’s why I say generally. When you get a few dozen thousand people crammed into a few dozen acres, all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/16 "2016-02-22T15:40:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Good point. Should we get rid of gendered bathrooms altogether? And if so, must we wait until everyone is okay with it, or, as with transgender access, mandate it now? How about phasing it in, which is being done already? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/17 "2016-02-22T15:40:34Z")
The whole idea is dumb from start to finish. The idea of men infiltrating women’s bathrooms so that… what exactly, they can pee next to a woman is just silly. If a person is peering into stalls at people, that should be illegal anyway, and their gender is irrelevant. There’s no actual issue to even worry about, the only purpose in passing laws preventing or restricting trans people from using the correct restroom for their gender is to harass trans people. And how does this doctor’s note idea interact with people who don’t meet your gender appearance standards? Does a butch lesbian, for example, need a doctor’s note to use the women’s restroom since she’ll generally look much more masculine than any trans woman, and people could doubt that she’s female? Do cross dressers need a note to use the bathroom of their actual gender? How will this doctor’s note be checked, and how will you feel if someone demands to see YOUR papers every time you go to the restroom, which some people would do simply to show the absurdity of such a law? What happens if someone doesn’t have a doctors note on them, are they not allowed to use public restrooms at all? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > My comments do not represent hatred or dislike for transgender people nor opposition to the bathroom laws, so please don’t get all angry. It’s just a discussion about how new ideas bring new questions. In practical terms, a person who operates outside of the home has to use public restrooms on occasion, it’s just the way biology and time works. So what you’re doing is arguing in favor of requiring a transgender person to have a doctor’s note if they wish to go out in public ever. If you didn’t harbor any dislike towards trans people, you wouldn’t think that requiring that they have a doctor’s note to go out in public is a reasonable thing to even consider. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/18 "2016-02-22T15:41:53Z")
> [@brainstall](#): > > In all my years of public washroom use, I can’t think of a single time this has been an issue. If I came out of a stall and saw a masculine man in the women’s washroom, I might wonder if one of us had made a mistake, or if I was the one walking in to the washroom, I might back out and recheck the signage on the door, and while I would find it odd, I wouldn’t say anything, or do anything other than what I had planned to do in there anyway. If I saw a sexually ambiguous person, I would give it even less thought. > > As long as no one is being creepy, I really don’t care who is in the stall or standing at the sink washing their hands next to me. And again, this isn’t about just you. What if someone else freaked out about that? Would you tell them not to? What if someone demanded proof the person was female…or simply identified as female? Is it even possible to prove such a thing (without violating privacy)? Can someone say you can’t identify as female if you “look male,” considering that you can identify as female if you actually are genetically male now? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/19 "2016-02-22T15:47:48Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The whole idea is dumb from start to finish. The idea of men infiltrating women’s bathrooms so that… what exactly, they can pee next to a woman is just silly. If a person is peering into stalls at people, that should be illegal anyway, and their gender is irrelevant. There’s no actual issue to even worry about, the only purpose in passing laws preventing or restricting trans people from using the correct restroom for their gender is to harass trans people. First of all, you can’t say that. This conversation started in another thread about someone who apparently did just that. Someone probably said the same thing about service animals too. Second, it’s hardly the only issue. > [@](#): > > And how does this doctor’s note idea interact with people who don’t meet your gender appearance standards? Does a butch lesbian, for example, need a doctor’s note to use the women’s restroom since she’ll generally look much more masculine than any trans woman, and people could doubt that she’s female? Do cross dressers need a note to use the bathroom of their actual gender? Exactly my point! So conceivably someone could use a women’s restroom while looking and acting and dressing like a man, and nobody could even question that. > [@](#): > > How will this doctor’s note be checked, and how will you feel if someone demands to see YOUR papers every time you go to the restroom, which some people would do simply to show the absurdity of such a law? What happens if someone doesn’t have a doctors note on them, are they not allowed to use public restrooms at all? Again, those are my questions. So if there’s no way to verify “proper” use of a restroom, how can you declare that it won’t be abused? > [@](#): > > In practical terms, a person who operates outside of the home has to use public restrooms on occasion, it’s just the way biology and time works. So what you’re doing is arguing in favor of requiring a transgender person to have a doctor’s note if they wish to go out in public ever. I am NOT arguing that. I’m not arguing anything at all. I’m just asking questions. > [@](#): > > If you didn’t harbor any dislike towards trans people, you wouldn’t think that requiring that they have a doctor’s note to go out in public is a reasonable thing to even consider. As I said, I’m not arguing that. But one could argue that this would protect trans people, not hurt them. If anyone can claim to be trans, that hurts legitimate trans people by diluting their claims to legitimate use of a restroom. Just as the fact that anyone can go say their dog is a service dog could make it harder for peple with real service dogs to assert their rights. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/20 "2016-02-22T15:49:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about phasing it in, which is being done already? In what way is it being phased in? Is it with restrooms that are private enough so as they are essentially segregated person to person, e.g. the same as a single-use restroom like you have at home? Do you have examples? (That’s what I’d like to see, just because I don’t want to do my business with a bunch of guys and more than with a bunch of girls.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=2)