# Transgender Service Animals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797 "2016-02-22T14:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/241 "2016-03-01T23:06:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We do respect freedom of association, but we socially ostracize those who discriminate on the basis of race. As long as we recognize that freedom of association for gender is a different thing, then we’ll be all right. Refusing to be friends with someone, or hang out with someone, because they are transgender, is and remains bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/242 "2016-03-01T23:18:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those two choices aren’t in conflict – no one opposes freedom of association, and people will always be able to choose who they want to hang out with. No one will force ladies to hang out with anyone they don’t want to on ladies night or any other night. Eeeeehhhh… I hate to break it, but this is actually a really Big Issue in feminism in general, and in things like Women’s Music Festivals and Women’s Groups in particular. There’s a camp that very much thinks that transgender women are women, and should be allowed to attend “women only” events, and other camp that feels just as strongly that they want only “born women” (cisgender women) and it’s perfectly acceptable to exclude transwomen. Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival was probably the most public of these skerfuffles, but I’ve seen it come up in quite a few activist and Neopagan circles as well. MWMF was unable to come to a satisfactory agreement, and so decided that 2015 was their last year, rather than continue to be open only to “womyn born womyn” or to open attendence to transwomen. I’m a co-organizer of an annual women’s retreat, and we’ve decided to open registration to “anyone who lives their daily life as a woman.” We’ve lost some attendees due to that decision, and gained some new ones (not all the new ones are trans, but many are at least trans allies.) There are other women’s retreats I’m aware of that have chosen to remain only open to women identified as female from birth. So, yes, in some instances, freedom of association is indeed opposed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/243 "2016-03-01T23:19:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Refusing to be friends with someone, or hang out with someone, because they are transgender, is and remains bigoted. I agree. But a gay night out can exclude straight people and a cis night out can exclude transgenders. There’s nothing socially unacceptable about that. Race is probably the only case where we really frown on that sort of thing, and rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/244 "2016-03-01T23:24:21Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Eeeeehhhh… I hate to break it, but this is actually a really Big Issue in feminism in general, and in things like Women’s Music Festivals and Women’s Groups in particular. There’s a camp that very much thinks that transgender women are women, and should be allowed to attend “women only” events, and other camp that feels just as strongly that they want only “born women” (cisgender women) and it’s perfectly acceptable to exclude transwomen. > > Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival was probably the most public of these skerfuffles, but I’ve seen it come up in quite a few activist and Neopagan circles as well. MWMF was unable to come to a satisfactory agreement, and so decided that 2015 was their last year, rather than continue to be open only to “womyn born womyn” or to open attendence to transwomen. > > I’m a co-organizer of an annual women’s retreat, and we’ve decided to open registration to “anyone who lives their daily life as a woman.” We’ve lost some attendees due to that decision, and gained some new ones (not all the new ones are trans, but many are at least trans allies.) There are other women’s retreats I’m aware of that have chosen to remain only open to women identified as female from birth. > > So, yes, in some instances, freedom of association is indeed opposed. There is a women’s college that accepts trans women. But it also allows trans men to stay if they are already enrolled. I guess that’s the humane thing to do, but if you identify as male shouldn’t you leave the women’s school? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/245 "2016-03-01T23:26:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So when Rosa Parks used a “coloreds only” restroom she was a bigot? What in god’s name are you on about? No, silly, when she used a women’s only restroom she was a bigot. Against men. Right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/246 "2016-03-01T23:28:49Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Eeeeehhhh… I hate to break it, but this is actually a really Big Issue in feminism in general, and in things like Women’s Music Festivals and Women’s Groups in particular. There’s a camp that very much thinks that transgender women are women, and should be allowed to attend “women only” events, and other camp that feels just as strongly that they want only “born women” (cisgender women) and it’s perfectly acceptable to exclude transwomen. > > Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival was probably the most public of these skerfuffles, but I’ve seen it come up in quite a few activist and Neopagan circles as well. MWMF was unable to come to a satisfactory agreement, and so decided that 2015 was their last year, rather than continue to be open only to “womyn born womyn” or to open attendence to transwomen. > > I’m a co-organizer of an annual women’s retreat, and we’ve decided to open registration to “anyone who lives their daily life as a woman.” We’ve lost some attendees due to that decision, and gained some new ones (not all the new ones are trans, but many are at least trans allies.) There are other women’s retreats I’m aware of that have chosen to remain only open to women identified as female from birth. > > So, yes, in some instances, freedom of association is indeed opposed. No it’s not – everyone can still associate with anyone they want in the examples you provide. Freedom of association would be opposed if those decisions were not allowed to be made by individuals, or groups of private individuals forming a private organization. These women’s groups and concerts are not government led, or government mandated, or anything like that. Women’s groups and concerts are free to decide for themselves who they allow within their organization and event. _That they’re having this debate means that they have freedom of association._ And I hold that if they choose to exclude transgender people, that is a bigoted action, but that’s still up to them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/247 "2016-03-01T23:29:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Unisex bathrooms - which I’m not so much a proponent of as accepting of - make things safer for both transgender people and for cisgender people, simply by virtue of having more people in and out of one room, reducing opportunity for assaults, and making it unremarkable for anyone of any gender to walk through the door. > > So that’s where I’m at. Unisex bathrooms are better than what we have now, and _much_ better than the anti-transgender solution. Do you think it will be easy though? Do you think many people will oppose unisex bathrooms? And locker rooms? Do you think we should just dismiss their concerns? Do you think that if anyone does oppose them, they are bigots or haters of the opposite sex? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/248 "2016-03-01T23:30:15Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Just to be clear; > Transgendered females, that is, folks with female genitalia who to six-year-old girls appear to be men should use which bathroom? > > CMC fnord! No, not clear - we are not talking about transgenders at all in that situation. You need to read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/249 "2016-03-01T23:42:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree. But a gay night out can exclude straight people and a cis night out can exclude transgenders. There’s nothing socially unacceptable about that. Race is probably the only case where we really frown on that sort of thing, and rightfully so. It’s more majority-minority than race – “straight night” might be frowned upon, as might “white night”, but “gay night” probably wouldn’t be. Since cispeople are the majority, “cis night” might be more likely to be frowned upon. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/250 "2016-03-01T23:47:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Do you think it will be easy though? I don’t think civil rights battles are ever easy. So, no, I don’t think it would be easy. > [@](#): > > Do you think many people will oppose unisex bathrooms? And locker rooms? What kind of timeline are we talking about here? I think by the time you and I die off, my daughter and her peers will laugh in disbelief that we were ever so worried about this, same as my peer group can’t really believe that there were ever Colored and White toilets. I agree that, right now, many people would oppose it, as many people have opposed them on college campuses. I mean, their opposition hasn’t counted for much in the long run, but they still oppose. > [@](#): > > Do you think we should just dismiss their concerns? Yeah, pretty much. Not entirely. I’ve said I’m open to other solutions; I just haven’t heard any proposed yet. I already suggested a wall between stalls and urinals, as one form of compromise. Compromise means I’m not _entirely_ dismissing their concerns. But I certainly stand firm that unfounded fear and hurt feelings are not as important as preventing discrimination and bodily harm. > [@](#): > > Do you think that if anyone does oppose them, they are bigots or haters of the opposite sex? I think most of them are afraid of the unknown. I think they’ve been misled by bigots and haters who have convinced them that transgender people in women’s bathrooms are likely instigators of attack, when [that has literally never been reported.](http://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms) Ever. I think others are sincerely clueless that 70% of transpersons have experienced discrimination in the bathroom, and don’t realize there’s a problem to be fixed. And, sadly, yes, _some_ of them are bigots and haters. I choose to believe that subgroup of bigots and haters is a minority until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/251 "2016-03-01T23:54:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I hold that if they choose to exclude transgender people, that is a bigoted action, but that’s still up to them. Think about it from women’s perspective though. Transgendered people certainly have a struggle, they are probably the most oppressed group in America today. But it’s a DIFFERENT struggle than what women have faced. I have a couple of gay friends who feel the same way. They have nothing against the transgendered, but lumping them in with the gay movement is like fish on ice cream. it’s two different struggles. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/252 "2016-03-02T00:07:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Think about it from women’s perspective though. Transgendered people certainly have a struggle, they are probably the most oppressed group in America today. But it’s a DIFFERENT struggle than what women have faced. I have a couple of gay friends who feel the same way. They have nothing against the transgendered, but lumping them in with the gay movement is like fish on ice cream. it’s two different struggles. That’s fine, but it still doesn’t excuse bigotry towards transgender people. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/253 "2016-03-02T00:10:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is a women’s college that accepts trans women. But it also allows trans men to stay if they are already enrolled. I guess that’s the humane thing to do, but if you identify as male shouldn’t you leave the women’s school? This is a bit of a problem in lesbian-friendly spaces. Oftentimes one will come out as a trans-dude, but still want to tag along to women-only events. It’s kind of awkward, because transitioning is hard enough without people who like and support you leaving you out of things you used to have fun doing, but you’re also no longer a woman. A lot of transdudes will eventually elect to sit out and hang out with the same people on non-“women-only” events, if only because it triggers their dysphoria a bit. Sometimes this will even become A Tiff™ where one party will get mad that the person is being uninvited and one party says they’re a dude now. The landscapes of these things are not clear cut. That said, all of this can become a bit patronizing to transmen. A lot of people know about TERFS – trans exclusionary radical feminists, but fewer are aware of TWERFS – Trans-woman exterminatory radical feminists. They hate transwomen possible more than your average TERF, but they also accept trans-men, use their pronouns, and want to let them into… uh… female only spaces. The whole theory is they’ve been brainwashed into wanting to be men by the patriarchy, but using their chosing pronouns and name is compassionate because these “women” are just “victims”. Like I said, very patronizing. > [@adaher](#): > > the transgendered Just so you know “the trangendered” is considered a (very mild) slur. Maybe slur isn’t even the right word, it’s kind of like hearing someone say “negro”. It’s not actively offensive, but is a little red warning light. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/254 "2016-03-02T00:16:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s fine, but it still doesn’t excuse bigotry towards transgender people. Exercising freedom of association in limited circumstances is not bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/255 "2016-03-02T00:19:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Exercising freedom of association in limited circumstances is not bigotry. It can be, in a minor way, but it’s not worth quibbling about. That kind of minor bigotry is ubiquitous. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/256 "2016-03-02T00:20:20Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Just so you know “the trangendered” is considered a (very mild) slur. Maybe slur isn’t even the right word, it’s kind of like hearing someone say “negro”. It’s not actively offensive, but is a little red warning light. Well, I don’t mind admitting that I’m “transitioning” myself into being more accepting of the whole idea, so in some ways I’m still going to be tone deaf and lack empathy. I grew up with transsexuals being primarily a humor device such as in Rocky Horror Picture Show(I wonder if that movie will be not cool soon). And even here on SDMB there was initially a clash between the hard science types and the advocates of transgender rights. So bear with me. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/257 "2016-03-02T00:29:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I grew up with transsexuals being primarily a humor device such as in Rocky Horror Picture Show(I wonder if that movie will be not cool soon). That movie is being remade with a woman in the lead role of Dr. Frank. I have no idea how that’s going to work. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/258 "2016-03-02T00:44:14Z")
_shrug_ A lot of LGBT people I know like it and consider it a “queer film”(/theatrical production). Some despise it. There’s really no telling. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/259 "2016-03-02T00:47:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is a women’s college that accepts trans women. But it also allows trans men to stay if they are already enrolled. I guess that’s the humane thing to do, but if you identify as male shouldn’t you leave the women’s school? A lot of those trans guys struggle with it, too. Staying at the school can feel like betraying your new identify. Plus, having the name of a famously all-female school on your CV is going to raise a lot of questions, and effectively means outing yourself as trans every time someone sees your diploma. On the other hand, a lot of these guys were able to transition in college because they found a support system and network of friends who accept them, and have found the school as an institution to be a safe place to be trans. Transferring to another school means leaving all of that behind, possibly for a more hostile and unaccepting campus. And that’s on top of all the other hassles inherent in switching colleges in the middle of your degree. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/260 "2016-03-02T15:14:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > What kind of timeline are we talking about here? I think by the time you and I die off, my daughter and her peers will laugh in disbelief that we were ever so worried about this You think that your daughter will laugh at the idea of having a men’s and women’s bathrooms and locker rooms? That’s what we are discussing here. Not transgenders. > [@](#): > > I already suggested a wall between stalls and urinals, as one form of compromise. But that’s just more separation! > [@](#): > > Compromise means I’m not _entirely_ dismissing their concerns. But I certainly stand firm that unfounded fear and hurt feelings are not as important as preventing discrimination and bodily harm. Again - this is NOT ABOUT transgenders, this is simply about separate bathrooms and locker rooms for the sexes. Do you think that this is a fundamental injustice? That it indicates “discrimination?” Who is being discriminated against? You realize that our schools have separate bathrooms and locker rooms and showers by sex and teach kids to go to one or the other. Is that an evil akin to having white and black restrooms? Are you going to start a protest to stop it in your community? Will the community rally behind you? I think most of them are afraid of the unknown. I think they’ve been misled by bigots and haters who have convinced them that transgender people in women’s bathrooms are likely instigators of attack, when [that has literally never been reported.](http://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms) Ever. I think others are sincerely clueless that 70% of transpersons have experienced discrimination in the bathroom, and don’t realize there’s a problem to be fixed. And, sadly, yes, _some_ of them are bigots and haters. I choose to believe that subgroup of bigots and haters is a minority until proven otherwise. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=14)