# Transgender Service Animals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797 "2016-02-22T14:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/261 "2016-03-02T15:17:14Z")
Back to the issue of transgenders. The argument posed was that it is about safety. And that’s fine. But suppose transgender people were even less safe using bathrooms appropriate to their gender rather than their biology? Suppose they are attacked repeatedly? What then? Should they be forced back into the old restrooms for their own safety? Or into separate bathrooms only for them, as some have proposed? Saying it’s about safety actually isn’t adequate. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/262 "2016-03-02T15:19:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It can be, in a minor way, but it’s not worth quibbling about. That kind of minor bigotry is ubiquitous. Wait - don’t you think it’s wrong for someone to insist that a person of the opposite sex - not just gender, but sex - not use the appropriate bathroom? Didn’t you say you’d lecture your daughter for that kind of “minor bigotry?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/263 "2016-03-02T15:30:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Wait - don’t you think it’s wrong for someone to insist that a person of the opposite sex - not just gender, but sex - not use the appropriate bathroom? Didn’t you say you’d lecture your daughter for that kind of “minor bigotry?” I’ll “quibble” about things with my family that I wouldn’t with internet strangers – I hold them to a different standard. Not that the post in question was about bathrooms. Care to respond to my [post #235](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19144632&postcount=235)? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/264 "2016-03-02T15:32:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Back to the issue of transgenders. The argument posed was that it is about safety. And that’s fine. But suppose transgender people were even less safe using bathrooms appropriate to their gender rather than their biology? Suppose they are attacked repeatedly? What then? Should they be forced back into the old restrooms for their own safety? Or into separate bathrooms only for them, as some have proposed? Saying it’s about safety actually isn’t adequate. Why suppose this if it’s not true? Safety is about real attacks and real dangers, and it’s entirely reasonable to base such decisions on preventing these things. If the danger were different, then the response might be different. Further, safety is not the _only_ issue – it’s also about the dignity of people to be allowed to go to the bathroom that fits their gender (assuming the society uses gendered bathrooms). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/265 "2016-03-02T17:12:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because that’s how it’s always been, even though it’s not that hard to be deceitful. Because _the vast majority of people have no interest in going into the other bathroom_. So basically you don’t care. Yet you would teach your own daughter that it’s wrong? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/266 "2016-03-02T17:14:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why suppose this if it’s not true? Safety is about real attacks and real dangers, and it’s entirely reasonable to base such decisions on preventing these things. If the danger were different, then the response might be different. Yes, IF. So it would be okay to force transgender people out of bathrooms they want to use if it’s for their own safety? > [@](#): > > Further, safety is not the _only_ issue – it’s also about the dignity of people to be allowed to go to the bathroom that fits their gender (assuming the society uses gendered bathrooms). Ah, so it actually isn’t just about safety. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/267 "2016-03-02T17:15:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll “quibble” about things with my family that I wouldn’t with internet strangers – I hold them to a different standard. But I’m trying to understand your standard. Why would you consider it wrong for your daughter to want to not share a bathroom with a stranger of the opposite sex and gender? (Not even talking about transgender people). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/268 "2016-03-02T17:17:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So basically you don’t care. Yet you would teach your own daughter that it’s wrong? This is not what I said at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/269 "2016-03-02T17:18:39Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But I’m trying to understand your standard. Why would you consider it wrong for your daughter to want to not share a bathroom with a stranger of the opposite sex and gender? (Not even talking about transgender people). I wouldn’t, necessarily, but it would be wrong (at least, after she is educated on the topic) for her to assume that just because someone looks different from the other people in the restroom that they don’t belong in the restroom. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/270 "2016-03-02T17:21:05Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes, IF. So it would be okay to force transgender people out of bathrooms they want to use if it’s for their own safety? The issue is about _what transgender people have asked for/demanded_ - they have demanded access to gender-appropriate bathrooms, for their own safety and dignity (and because they have to pee sometimes). If they demanded something different for some other reasons, I would consider what they said on its merits. My position on this issue is directly related to _what transgender people have asked for and demanded_. It’s not “I know best for them”… it’s “they know best for them and I should listen”. > [@](#): > > Ah, so it actually isn’t just about safety. Not just about safety, no, but that’s probably the biggest concern. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/271 "2016-03-02T17:22:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not what I said at all. Then I was confused. I’ll ask again - if your daughter complained that there was a man, who you and she both knew was a biological male, not a transgender man - in the bathroom with her, what would you tell her? Throw in a locker room for good measure. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/272 "2016-03-02T17:23:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The issue is about _what transgender people have asked for/demanded_ - they have demanded access to gender-appropriate bathrooms, for their own safety and dignity (and because they have to pee sometimes). If they demanded something different for some other reasons, I would consider what they said on its merits. What if they demand to use either restroom, depending on what they prefer? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/273 "2016-03-02T17:24:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Then I was confused. > > I’ll ask again - if your daughter complained that there was a man, who you and she both knew was a biological male, not a transgender man - in the bathroom with her, what would you tell her? Throw in a locker room for good measure. Assuming you mean “biological and cisgender male”, didn’t I answer this already? I would say “we should go to the authorities/proprietors and tell them that there is a man in the ladies’ room”. When gendered bathrooms are in use, it’s inappropriate for men to use the ladies room and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/274 "2016-03-02T17:26:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What if they demand to use either restroom, depending on what they prefer? I would have to hear the reasoning from an actual transgender person to make such a judgment. “What we prefer” doesn’t sound like a good reason (and is not actually equal/equivalent to what cisgender people have) – “access to gender appropriate bathrooms” for safety, dignity, and 'cause they have to pee, is a good reason, and is equal/equivalent to what cisgender people have. But I would certainly be willing to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/275 "2016-03-02T18:21:45Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Then I was confused. > > I’ll ask again - if your daughter complained that there was a man,_who you and she both knew was a biological male_, not a transgender man - in the bathroom with her, what would you tell her? Throw in a locker room for good measure. (emphasis mine)And how do you and she both know this? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/276 "2016-03-02T18:29:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Assuming you mean “biological and cisgender male”, didn’t I answer this already? I would say “we should go to the authorities/proprietors and tell them that there is a man in the ladies’ room”. When gendered bathrooms are in use, it’s inappropriate for men to use the ladies room and vice versa. Yes, you answered it, but you didn’t really. What if your daughter said “I didn’t ask you to go to the authorities, I just don’t want to use a restroom with a man, period.”? Do you think it is okay for your daughter to feel that way, or not? That’s the question. And by extension, is it wrong for anyone to want to not share a bathroom or locker room with a member of the opposite sex? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/277 "2016-03-02T18:31:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > (emphasis mine)And how do you and she both know this? Because I said so. That’s not the point. The point is that this question isn’t about transgender people. Of course, if you can’t ever know who is who, either gender or sex, that simply proves my point that there’s no point in pretending that we have gender-segregated restrooms at all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/278 "2016-03-02T18:31:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yes, you answered it, but you didn’t really. > > What if your daughter said “I didn’t ask you to go to the authorities, I just don’t want to use a restroom with a man, period.”? > > Do you think it is okay for your daughter to feel that way, or not? That’s the question. And by extension, is it wrong for anyone to want to not share a bathroom or locker room with a member of the opposite sex? How do you and your daughter know it is a biological male and not a transgender? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/279 "2016-03-02T18:32:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I would have to hear the reasoning from an actual transgender person to make such a judgment. “What we prefer” doesn’t sound like a good reason (and is not actually equal/equivalent to what cisgender people have) – “access to gender appropriate bathrooms” for safety, dignity, and 'cause they have to pee, is a good reason, and is equal/equivalent to what cisgender people have. > > But I would certainly be willing to listen. Really? A transgender person has to make an argument good enough for you before they can gain access to a restroom corresponding with their gender? It’s not a right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/280 "2016-03-02T18:36:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Because I said so. > > That’s not the point. The point is that this question isn’t about transgender people. > > Of course, if you can’t ever know who is who, either gender or sex, that simply proves my point that there’s no point in pretending that we have gender-segregated restrooms at all. “Because I said so” is definitely not good enough, and when you quit putting the word “transgender” into your own posts you can say this isn’t about transgender people. I’m sorry, but “I knows 'em when I sees 'em” is about as backwards thinking as you can get, so please explain to us how this little girl can tell the difference between a transgender and a biological male, or admit that you can’t tell the difference and are just assuming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=15)