# Transgender Service Animals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797 "2016-02-22T14:26:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/101 "2016-02-22T19:04:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Back on topic, [here is an article on transgendered service animals](http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/12/army-military-working-dogs/). > > 😃 Wow, you’re good at this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/102 "2016-02-22T19:08:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sorry. > > What I meant is thanks for answering my questions honestly. All I really wanted was for someone to admit that the things I bring up have no easy solution. Okay. Do you agree that this is unlikely to occur more than extremely rarely, if at all? And do you agree that allowing people to use the bathroom corresponding to their self-identification does the best job of balancing everyone’s needs, since there’s no dignified, convenient, and reasonable way of detecting whether the self-identifier might be lying? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/103 "2016-02-22T19:10:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. Do you agree that this is unlikely to occur more than extremely rarely, if at all? I have no idea. > [@](#): > > And do you agree that allowing people to use the bathroom corresponding to their self-identification does the best job of balancing everyone’s needs, since there’s no dignified, convenient, and reasonable way of detecting whether the self-identifier might be lying? I don’t think you can link the two like that. The fact that one can lie doesn’t mean it serves everyone’s needs. ---
**Author:** ![ElderSign](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eldersign/32/8263_2.png) [@ElderSign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElderSign)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/104 "2016-02-22T19:12:36Z")
I know a few guys who are itching to go into women’s restrooms using the self-ID loophole. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/105 "2016-02-22T19:16:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I have no idea. > > I don’t think you can link the two like that. The fact that one can lie doesn’t mean it serves everyone’s needs. No possible policy serves everyone’s needs (that I can think of, anyway – I’m open to ideas!). Since I believe that the problem you offer will be incredibly rare (someone lying about their gender identity to gain access to a bathroom), if it even ever occurs, I think that allowing people to use the bathroom corresponding to their self-identification does the best possible job of meeting everyone’s needs while minimizing the chance of harm. If you disagree with this, what part do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/106 "2016-02-22T19:17:10Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > I know a few guys who are itching to go into women’s restrooms using the self-ID loophole. And there’s an excellent opportunity to apply the **DrFidelius Asshole Test** (pat. pend.). Yeah, I know shitty people too. Fortunately, they are readily identifiable as shitty people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/107 "2016-02-22T19:18:11Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > I know a few guys who are itching to go into women’s restrooms using the self-ID loophole. They got a thing for ankles, closed stall doors, and hand-washing? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/108 "2016-02-22T19:35:46Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I cannot remember the last time I saw someone’s genitals in a public restroom. Once in a great while in a locker room, sure, but it’s not like I’m A) searching them out or B) at any risk from them. If I happen to see someone’s junk, it does not cause me pain or trauma. Why should I care? If a guy in a locker room happens to have a big penis, a small penis, an unusually-shaped penis, or no penis at all, it’s not any of my business. > . Sure, but by that logic, you could say a transgender person shouldn’t care either so they shouldn’t demand to use a certain bathroom or locker room. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/109 "2016-02-22T19:37:06Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And there’s an excellent opportunity to apply the **DrFidelius Asshole Test** (pat. pend.). I’m sure he’s thrilled with that term! > [@](#): > > Yeah, I know shitty people too. Fortunately, they are readily identifiable as shitty people. Yeah, but there are probably shitty people you know who you don’t know are shitty…because they don’t self-identify. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/110 "2016-02-22T19:38:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No possible policy serves everyone’s needs (that I can think of, anyway – I’m open to ideas!). Since I believe that the problem you offer will be incredibly rare (someone lying about their gender identity to gain access to a bathroom), if it even ever occurs, I think that allowing people to use the bathroom corresponding to their self-identification does the best possible job of meeting everyone’s needs while minimizing the chance of harm. If you disagree with this, what part do you disagree with? What about the objections of those who, when they know that a transgender person is transgender, are uncomfortable with that? Is that not a “need?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/111 "2016-02-22T19:41:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Back on topic, [here is an article on transgendered service animals](http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/12/army-military-working-dogs/). > > 😃 And by the way, none of the four guide dogs I raised wore clothes. Fur yes, but no clothes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/112 "2016-02-22T19:42:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure, but by that logic, you could say a transgender person shouldn’t care either so they shouldn’t demand to use a certain bathroom or locker room. Sure, but by that logic, you could say an African American person shouldn’t care about skin color either, so they shouldn’t demand to use a certain restroom or water fountain. No, it’s entirely reasonable for a woman to demand _not to be barred_ from using a women’s restroom, and a man to demand _not to be barred_ from using a men’s restroom. . ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/113 "2016-02-22T19:46:43Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Sure, by by that logic, you could say an African American person shouldn’t care about skin color either, so they shouldn’t demand to use a certain restroom or water fountain. But it’s YOUR logic, remember? > [@](#): > > No, it’s entirely reasonable for a woman to demand _not to be barred_ from using a women’s restroom, and a man to demand _not to be barred_ from using a men’s restroom. > . But you just said: > [@](#): > > I cannot remember the last time I saw someone’s genitals in a public restroom. Once in a great while in a locker room, sure, but it’s not like I’m A) searching them out or B) at any risk from them. If I happen to see someone’s junk, it does not cause me pain or trauma. Why should I care? If a guy in a locker room happens to have a big penis, a small penis, an unusually-shaped penis, or no penis at all, it’s not any of my business. So why should people care what bathroom they use if it doesn’t matter what their genitals are and they can’t be seen? Why does it matter? Why have gendered bathrooms? Why would anyone want to use one? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/114 "2016-02-22T19:48:49Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m not talking about service dogs, I’m talking about the suggestion that all dogs be allowed, service or not. Someone said excluding dogs in general was an outdated policy. In Germany dogs are allowed on public transport - in fact the fare machines have a dog option. I never noticed any dogshit on the floor of the subway or bus. Our guide dog puppies did have accidents once or twice, once in the supermarket. It was no big deal. And adult dogs know where to go and where not to go. Exclude any dogs with a record of bad behavior like you exclude shoplifters, and no big deal. As for the other question, just over 20 years ago there was a woman transitioning to a man at work. It was announced that he would start using a certain bathroom, the one I usually used. It was no big deal. No one got the cooties. And I don’t know what a man using a woman’s bathroom would expect to see - they seem more private than men’s rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/115 "2016-02-22T19:53:31Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why does it matter? Why have gendered bathrooms? Why would anyone want to use one? Apparently, some people feel cheated if they don’t have an opportunity to glace at the genitals of those of their own sex. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/116 "2016-02-22T19:54:45Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What about the objections of those who, when they know that a transgender person is transgender, are uncomfortable with that? Is that not a “need?” It’s no more of a legitimate need then being uncomfortable in a bathroom with black people, or with gay people, or the like. I suppose they might think it’s a need, but then I imagine some people feel it’s a need to not have to pee next to a black person, or a gay person, or a Jew, or whatever. I’m not very concerned about these kinds of “needs”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/117 "2016-02-22T19:58:39Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But it’s YOUR logic, remember? No, it’s your interpretation of “my logic.” But it’s a flawed interpretation. > [@](#): > > So why should people care what bathroom they use if it doesn’t matter what their genitals are and they can’t be seen? Because women should not be \*barred \*from using a space designated for women. And men should not be \*barred \*from using a space designated for men. Regardless of what their bodies look like. > [@](#): > > Why have gendered bathrooms? Indeed. > [@](#): > > Why would anyone want to use one? Inertia, habit, culture, fear, tradition, hangups about sex, hangups about gender, the desire to evacuate in the presence one’s own gender, the opportunity to apply makeup/tidy hair/gossip with one’s own gender. Pick any of the above. But you already know that. You seem to think it makes my position inherently contradictory or otherwise flawed? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/118 "2016-02-22T20:02:55Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Is the concern that he’s going to rape her? Frankly, I think that’s more a result of that oddness that raises that, and if we had unisex bathrooms and people were accustomed to that, that just wouldn’t be the case. And if there’s concern about perversion, that’s something that would be more likely in that situation that just in another one, but with stalls and divides between urinals and all, it seems to me that it would be difficult to pull that off discreetly. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Of course, using a restroom not of your gender isn’t some kind of special advantage like parking is, so it’s not as ripe for abuse unless you’re a perv (but there \*are \*pervs). > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@ElderSign](#): > > > > I know a few guys who are itching to go into women’s restrooms using the self-ID loophole. > > They got a thing for ankles, closed stall doors, and hand-washing? As it is now, there are certain public men’s restrooms where it’s not all that unusual for men to cruise for sexual activity. At my university there was a particular restroom in one of the building basements where it was apparently a big problem. I never really saw anything, but in my time there they ended up completely removing all the stall doors, and posted a bunch of threatening signs about how the premises were patrolled by officers and any “lewd activity” would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I’ve seen other (men’s) restrooms like that with no stall doors, and assume it was for the same reason rather than them simply being too poor to afford doors. Point is that men are pervs, and this is a regular thing that happens all over the place (hell, I’ve heard that there are even a few that have glory holes cut in them, but I haven’t seen that personally). I imagine it doesn’t get complained about that often now, since from what I can tell the behavior is more discreet/covert than outright aggressive solicitation, and a man who isn’t interested in that would generally just go about his business and move along without reporting anything. But if all public restrooms suddenly became unisex, I could see a massive floodgate of complaints of that nature opening up. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/119 "2016-02-22T20:08:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s no more of a legitimate need then being uncomfortable in a bathroom with black people, or with gay people, or the like. I suppose they might think it’s a need, but then I imagine some people feel it’s a need to not have to pee next to a black person, or a gay person, or a Jew, or whatever. I’m not very concerned about these kinds of “needs”. Really? You actually equate wanting gender privacy in bathrooms with segregation by race? Do you live in the real world? Do you really think people’s desires to be away from the other gender for privacy reasons is equivalent to hatred for the other sex? Or a desire to never associate with them at all? I mean, come on. If you really believe this, then you should be out on a crusade to end the horrible injustice of “separate but equal” bathrooms. You should start a civil rights group. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797/120 "2016-02-22T20:10:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No, it’s your interpretation of “my logic.” But it’s a flawed interpretation. Okay, let’s see why. > [@](#): > > Because women should not be \*barred \*from using a space designated for women. And men should not be \*barred \*from using a space designated for men. Regardless of what their bodies look like. But by YOUR LOGIC,\* genitals don’t matter, so men shouldn’t be barred from using a space that women use and vice versa. You can’t just turn it around like that. > [@](#): > > Inertia, habit, culture, fear, tradition, hangups about sex, hangups about gender, the desire to evacuate in the presence one’s own gender, the opportunity to apply makeup/tidy hair/gossip with one’s own gender. Pick any of the above. > > But you already know that. You seem to think it makes my position inherently contradictory or otherwise flawed? Yes, I already know that. And so do you. The question is why you think you can override those views with your own. \*If you were only expressing your personal views on the matter, that’s fine. But if you think we should all adopt your personal standard, that’s your logic at work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-service-animals/746797.md?page=7)