Bullshit.
You can’t just say that all jerks are going to be obvious.
So your grandma should STFU if she doesn’t like having to pee next to a man in the next stall?
Look, if you say yes, that’s fine. I don’t care either way. I’m just pointing out that these policies raise new questions, and they are real, and you can’t just wish them away or substitute your own desires for those of others.
I don’t know, why don’t you go ask other people? Do you think nobody out there actually cares just because you don’t? Do you think their views don’t matter? Do you really think it will be easy?
Yes, pretty much, although it is not a crusade I expend any energy on.
As we approach a more resource-tight future the duplication of installations will be seen to be wasteful and the idea will be as obsolete as the idea of mandatory bathing suits.
That’s why the dog has to be clean and well behaved. that way, there’s no real problem even if the person is faking.
BTW, I feel about disabled rights the same way I feel about transgendered rights. Barring dogs from places is an outdated, stupid idea with a few exceptions. If the government in its wisdom has decided that service dogs pose no health threat in restaurants or malls because they are clean and well behaved, then all clean and well behaved dogs should be permitted.
Both the disabled and transgendered have the burden of “proving” their need to a skeptical public. But what their need has shown us is that there isn’t really a problem requiring us to make very narrow exceptions. Instead of making exceptions, we should just change policies for everyone, and create narrow exceptions where such behavior is prohibited instead, rather than permitted. So in case I wasn’t clear, a person should be allowed to bring their clean and well behaved dog anywhere they want except for certain places where it’s just not a great idea(such as on a roller coaster).
Somebody is doing the deep thinking around here!
This is really just about social evolution. We aren’t ready for unisex bathrooms and locker rooms, so instead we create exceptions for people with special needs. We aren’t ready for dogs to be everywhere, so we create exceptions for people with special needs.
But the nice thing about the Dope is that we don’t have to concede to social mores. We can fly straight past the bullshit to get to the ideal endpoint.
So anyone should bring dogs anywhere they want? Okay, not restaurants or places they sell food, is that your exception? What about my shop where I sell fragile stuff and don’t want dog hair or dog shit or animals knocking over stuff? Or I don’t want dogs barking (especially at each other - if you let one dog in you have to let two or three or whatever in)? What about young children who might accidentally hurt or threaten a dog and get bitten?
Dogs are banned for good reasons.
Does this mean I hate dogs? Or the disabled?
But it’s certain there will be someone along the way saying “why do you hate ____?”
I think the primary problem related to this is one of culture and not one that law is appropriate to address. Let’s consider the current situation, in that, we have separate restrooms and there’s no laws, at least as far as I’m aware, that make it illegal for me or even have any way to stop me from using a women’s room. I don’t because of the social contract about gender segregated restrooms and I have no compelling reason to do something different. At the same time, I’ve been in situations, like a concerts or sporting events, where I see women going in and using the men’s room. They generally don’t for the same reason I do, but when there’s a compelling reason, like a massive line for the women’s room, they do. It’s a bit odd when I’ve seen it, not because I have some sort of fear or concern, mostly just because it’s abnormal. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the opposite, though I wouldn’t be in a situation to really observer, but I could imagine it might happen if it’s a similar type of event that has a much larger male audience and, thus, leaves men with a long line and women without one.
By the same token, I think it’s more or less this that negatively affects people. It’s odd seeing people who, for some reason or another, don’t belong. But at the same time, I don’t really understand the concerns that something bad happening becomes meaningfully higher because a man is in a restroom with a woman than if he’s near her in other types of situations. For example, I’ve been in clothing stores that just have a set of several changing rooms, not gender separated, what’s different from a man and a woman changing clothes in adjacent stalls vs relieving themselves?
Is the concern that he’s going to rape her? Frankly, I think that’s more a result of that oddness that raises that, and if we had unisex bathrooms and people were accustomed to that, that just wouldn’t be the case. And if there’s concern about perversion, that’s something that would be more likely in that situation that just in another one, but with stalls and divides between urinals and all, it seems to me that it would be difficult to pull that off discreetly.
That all said, I do sympathize with privacy, and feeling safe when engaging in generally private activities that occur in bathrooms. So, I don’t think the answer is just “deal with it”. It needs to be a culture shift. First, and I think this is already overwhelmingly the case, but I think transgendered people should be aware of how they appear to other people and how the particular circumstances affect how their actions are perceived, and make appropriate judgments balancing potential reactions and the comfort of others with their needs. That is, if a trans woman is dressed up and is presenting herself as a woman, by all means, even if she doesn’t pass to well. If, perhaps, she’s out and about not in such a way, perhaps still dressing as a man for work because she’s not out there yet, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask her to still use the men’s room when she stops to buy groceries on the way home. Unfortunately, it gets much fuzzier for the situations between those sorts of things.
Second, and this is on the rest of us, we need to get the hell over it. It really isn’t a big deal. There’s people who have obnoxious concerns even as things are, of other men, accidentally seeing their penises when they’re at a urinal. Even if that man IS gay, unless he’s going to stare, or worse, make some kind of advance in a clearly inappropriate situation, so what? And if it’s that much of a concern, use a stall. Women always use stalls unless they’re only using the sink. So, unless someone is peering over or under or through the small cracks in the stall, which would be blatantly obvious to anyone else in the bathroom, that’s just not going to happen. Hell, I don’t even see the need for separate bathrooms. Have a section for stalls, maybe have a small bit around a corner for a bit of privacy for urinals, which obviously only physical men will use, or maybe not even really bother as any man that concerned about privacy will use a stall anyway.
I do get that at a place like a gym or somewhere where people will disrobe might be a bit more of a concern, but I’m not even really sure how that’s different from now. Not only does it seem to me that generally someone who has body image issues will have those around people regardless of gender, but also that transgendered people are probably far more likely to have body image than anyone else. In those cases, why not add a few changing stalls that addresses a place for people with whatever privacy or body image issues they have or, hell, even just change at home or whatever and put over-clothes on, and just use those areas to just pull them off so nothing more shows. Hell, I change at home, not out of privacy concerns, just because it’s so much easier and I don’t have to drag all that stuff to the gym.
Regardless, I don’t see how the government can meaningfully do anything about and of this. Let a business police, or not, their bathrooms as they see fit, and really, the only adjustment I can even see is just making sure people have privacy in reasonable situations where they feel they need it. If a publish restroom has no toilets with doors, add some; if a changing room as no private stalls, add some. It solves this AND other issues. It seems win-win to me.
Even if the government could provide some sort of self-identified gender card, so what? What stops a supposed pervert from getting one? And what’s the recourse if someone is caught using a bathroom without a card? And what about the unfortunate souls who are not transgendered but are somewhat androgynous, do they now have to carry around a card in case anyone complains about them? I think they need to do nothing and let people get used to it and it will fix itself in due time.
Glad you said that because it makes me think of another parallel - handicapped parking.
In that situation, we do demand proof (a handicapped placard or plate, certified by a doctor).
Even then, the world is full of both people abusing them and people going around confronting alleged abusers about whether they are “really” disabled and demanding personal details or proof.
Of course, using a restroom not of your gender isn’t some kind of special advantage like parking is, so it’s not as ripe for abuse unless you’re a perv (but there *are *pervs). And gender identity isn’t quite a disability. But it’s a similar issue like the service dog thing.
We don’t need to get rid of the idea, but why do we need to codify any enforcement? Hang a sign up outside of a bathroom, men will generally go in the men’s room and women will generally go in the other, and we can leave it at that. If you go into a women’s room and do your business and don’t harass anyone while you’re in there, woopty doo.
When my daughters reached a certain age I had to start going into more women’s rooms on occasion to help them out. Nobody arrested me. Should they have?
Really?
So nobody should care if someone of the other gender is in the bathroom?
Some people care deeply about that. They will call the police, and the transgressor could be arrested.
Are they wrong to care?
Good question. But you could be arrested for it. And if a woman objected, what would you say? I’m helping my daughter so shut up and mind your own business?
And if it doesn’t matter - why not simply take your daughter into the men’s room with you?
Well behaved dogs who are clean are actually less of a health issue than your average four year old child.
Perhaps you missed the part about the dog being clean and well behaved.
Which also describes proper restroom behavior.
Okay, I can agree with that. Have the option, but no law enforcement assuming normal behavior.
That’s actually really interesting, because as a family unit we’ve dealt with what is effectively transgenderism for a long time. Where does a father go with his daughter or a mother with her son? So we invented family restrooms. Perhaps we could just change “family restroom” to “unisex restroom” or “inclusive restroom”.
IMO, yes.
What would I be arrested for? The store could kick me out, and that’s what the current debate is over, but as far as I know I’d have to actually be harassing someone to be arrested. Sure, maybe there’d be an overreaction, cops would be called, I’d be arrested on some BS charge, but I’d assume common sense would prevail.
Not sure if you have kids or how other parents do it, mine stopped wanting to go into the men’s room with me around 4 or 5. You pick your battles, and I’m not about to fight over a perfectly reasonable request like that. But at that age they sometimes have a hard time with heavy faucet actions, paper towel dispensers that are too high, and heavy doors. I’m not saying I made a habit out of it but it does happen.
How do I know a dog is well-behaved though?
Not just law enforcement, though. The debate would be whether a store owner could eject a customer for using the “wrong” bathroom. Right now they can (I think, I’m not smart on this issue), and transgendered people want protection from that. I’m OK with a law saying that stores cannot enforce bathroom separation. Suggest it, sure, but assuming normal bathroom behavior ensues it can’t be any more than a suggestion.
eta: I guess the more lasting concern might be employers controlling which bathroom their employees can use. Like I said, I probably need to learn more about this issue.
So you think every person who thinks they shouldn’t have to use a unisex bathroom is wrong.
Okay. Now go convince them and tell them why their views on the subject shouldn’t prevail and they should be forced to use unisex bathrooms. That’s the next step.
Why?
Shouldn’t you be teaching your child that it’s wrong? You just said it was. You want to force adults to use unisex bathrooms but you yield to a 5-year-old?
But you JUST SAID that it isn’t reasonable!
What if, as your views suggest, we get rid of gendered bathrooms? What then? What will you tell your daughter to do and everyone else’s children?