Wow, you’re good at this.
Okay. Do you agree that this is unlikely to occur more than extremely rarely, if at all? And do you agree that allowing people to use the bathroom corresponding to their self-identification does the best job of balancing everyone’s needs, since there’s no dignified, convenient, and reasonable way of detecting whether the self-identifier might be lying?
I have no idea.
I don’t think you can link the two like that. The fact that one can lie doesn’t mean it serves everyone’s needs.
I know a few guys who are itching to go into women’s restrooms using the self-ID loophole.
No possible policy serves everyone’s needs (that I can think of, anyway – I’m open to ideas!). Since I believe that the problem you offer will be incredibly rare (someone lying about their gender identity to gain access to a bathroom), if it even ever occurs, I think that allowing people to use the bathroom corresponding to their self-identification does the best possible job of meeting everyone’s needs while minimizing the chance of harm. If you disagree with this, what part do you disagree with?
And there’s an excellent opportunity to apply the DrFidelius Asshole Test (pat. pend.).
Yeah, I know shitty people too. Fortunately, they are readily identifiable as shitty people.
They got a thing for ankles, closed stall doors, and hand-washing?
Sure, but by that logic, you could say a transgender person shouldn’t care either so they shouldn’t demand to use a certain bathroom or locker room.
I’m sure he’s thrilled with that term!
Yeah, but there are probably shitty people you know who you don’t know are shitty…because they don’t self-identify.
What about the objections of those who, when they know that a transgender person is transgender, are uncomfortable with that? Is that not a “need?”
And by the way, none of the four guide dogs I raised wore clothes. Fur yes, but no clothes.
Sure, but by that logic, you could say an African American person shouldn’t care about skin color either, so they shouldn’t demand to use a certain restroom or water fountain.
No, it’s entirely reasonable for a woman to demand not to be barred from using a women’s restroom, and a man to demand not to be barred from using a men’s restroom.
.
But it’s YOUR logic, remember?
But you just said:
So why should people care what bathroom they use if it doesn’t matter what their genitals are and they can’t be seen?
Why does it matter? Why have gendered bathrooms? Why would anyone want to use one?
In Germany dogs are allowed on public transport - in fact the fare machines have a dog option. I never noticed any dogshit on the floor of the subway or bus.
Our guide dog puppies did have accidents once or twice, once in the supermarket. It was no big deal. And adult dogs know where to go and where not to go. Exclude any dogs with a record of bad behavior like you exclude shoplifters, and no big deal.
As for the other question, just over 20 years ago there was a woman transitioning to a man at work. It was announced that he would start using a certain bathroom, the one I usually used. It was no big deal. No one got the cooties. And I don’t know what a man using a woman’s bathroom would expect to see - they seem more private than men’s rooms.
Apparently, some people feel cheated if they don’t have an opportunity to glace at the genitals of those of their own sex.
It’s no more of a legitimate need then being uncomfortable in a bathroom with black people, or with gay people, or the like. I suppose they might think it’s a need, but then I imagine some people feel it’s a need to not have to pee next to a black person, or a gay person, or a Jew, or whatever. I’m not very concerned about these kinds of “needs”.
No, it’s your interpretation of “my logic.” But it’s a flawed interpretation.
Because women should not be *barred *from using a space designated for women. And men should not be *barred *from using a space designated for men. Regardless of what their bodies look like.
Indeed.
Inertia, habit, culture, fear, tradition, hangups about sex, hangups about gender, the desire to evacuate in the presence one’s own gender, the opportunity to apply makeup/tidy hair/gossip with one’s own gender. Pick any of the above.
But you already know that. You seem to think it makes my position inherently contradictory or otherwise flawed?
As it is now, there are certain public men’s restrooms where it’s not all that unusual for men to cruise for sexual activity. At my university there was a particular restroom in one of the building basements where it was apparently a big problem. I never really saw anything, but in my time there they ended up completely removing all the stall doors, and posted a bunch of threatening signs about how the premises were patrolled by officers and any “lewd activity” would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
I’ve seen other (men’s) restrooms like that with no stall doors, and assume it was for the same reason rather than them simply being too poor to afford doors. Point is that men are pervs, and this is a regular thing that happens all over the place (hell, I’ve heard that there are even a few that have glory holes cut in them, but I haven’t seen that personally). I imagine it doesn’t get complained about that often now, since from what I can tell the behavior is more discreet/covert than outright aggressive solicitation, and a man who isn’t interested in that would generally just go about his business and move along without reporting anything. But if all public restrooms suddenly became unisex, I could see a massive floodgate of complaints of that nature opening up.
Really?
You actually equate wanting gender privacy in bathrooms with segregation by race?
Do you live in the real world? Do you really think people’s desires to be away from the other gender for privacy reasons is equivalent to hatred for the other sex? Or a desire to never associate with them at all?
I mean, come on.
If you really believe this, then you should be out on a crusade to end the horrible injustice of “separate but equal” bathrooms. You should start a civil rights group.
Okay, let’s see why.
But by YOUR LOGIC,* genitals don’t matter, so men shouldn’t be barred from using a space that women use and vice versa. You can’t just turn it around like that.
Yes, I already know that. And so do you. The question is why you think you can override those views with your own.
*If you were only expressing your personal views on the matter, that’s fine. But if you think we should all adopt your personal standard, that’s your logic at work.