# Transgender - transracial. What is the essential difference? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 3, 2021, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117 "2021-02-03T10:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/281 "2021-02-09T11:02:15Z")
It’s no more a double standard than the ridiculous “I identify as a helicopter” nonsense. Transgender is real, trans helicopter is not, and transrace is not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/282 "2021-02-09T11:03:23Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, what? _I_ don’t know, _you_ were the one who didn’t complete the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/283 "2021-02-09T11:08:20Z")
That’s not the double standard I’m talking about. It’s ‘scholarships for black students should be reserved for people who grew up black and suffered discrimination because of it, but reserving women’s scholarships for people who grew up female and suffered discrimination because of it is bigoted and transphobic’. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/284 "2021-02-09T11:13:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Transgender is real, trans helicopter is not, and transrace is not. Easy to say but harder to justify I think. I don’t see any arguments given that close off the concept of a transracial identity. If mental states define gender identity then why are mental states not enough to define racial identity? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/285 "2021-02-09T11:19:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _I_ don’t know, _you_ were the one who didn’t complete the sentence. I thought you did know. If gender identity isn’t what you believe about yourself then what is it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/286 "2021-02-09T11:22:33Z")
Reserve women’s scholarships for women (cis or trans). If you want a scholarship for cis women (which is what it sounds like you’re after), then feel free. No double standard - scholarships for people who grew up as girls (and are now women) should go to cis women and be explicitly labeled as such. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/287 "2021-02-09T11:23:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I thought you did know _Still_ doesn’t answer the question. Which, in case you’ve forgotten, was “realise **what**?” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/288 "2021-02-09T11:26:24Z")
Because race has never been about how someone feels about themselves. It’s always been about how others identify and treat them. My own feelings have nothing to do with my race, and never have. That’s very different than gender identity. Maybe some folks feel like race is about one’s own feelings. I think that goes against the entire history of race and racism. Race is bullshit, and I wish it didn’t exist, but it’s existence was never about how one felt about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/289 "2021-02-09T11:44:10Z")
There is a lot of absolute language in your post and yet you still allow for a “maybe”. That’s fine. That’s the only concession you need to make. No-one is asking you to imagine what it would be like to feel that way but an acceptance that someone could seems to be perfectly reasonable. Race is bullshit, I agree. The distinctions between various groups is so small as to be pretty much meaningless which is why there should probably be a much lower bar and probably a less powerful loaded-term to describe what it means to feel more at home with a cultural/ethnic/“racial” group than the one you are born into. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/290 "2021-02-09T11:45:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Reserve women’s scholarships for women (cis or trans). If you want a scholarship for cis women (which is what it sounds like you’re after), then feel free. No double standard - scholarships for people who grew up as girls (and are now women) should go to cis women and be explicitly labeled as such. It’s all very well saying that, but in reality if some organisation wanted to reserve scholarships for cis women, they’d be declared transphobic within the day. Every activist and journalist would rush to condemn them. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/291 "2021-02-09T11:48:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Still_ doesn’t answer the question. Which, in case you’ve forgotten, was “realise **what**?” That’s exactly my question, though. It’s phrased that way, but _what_ are they realising? Compare being gay, realising you’re gay would be realising you’re attracted to people of the same sex (and not those of the opposite sex). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/292 "2021-02-09T11:56:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > That’s exactly my question, though. No, that’s nothing like your question, which, if I need to remind you, was: > [@DemonTree](#): > > Isn’t that the position of most transgender people before they realise, though? There’s nothing there about what they’re realising. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Compare being gay, realising you’re gay would be realising you’re attracted to people of the same sex (and not those of the opposite sex). … I think you’re missing some information there with your constant use of the present tense. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/293 "2021-02-09T12:03:28Z")
You have a person who has always believed they are a woman, lived as a woman, etc, and at some later time they now believe they are a man. My question is, did this person’s gender identity change? If not, then gender identity cannot be ‘the gender you believe you are’, so what exactly is it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/294 "2021-02-09T12:04:52Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No-one is asking you to imagine what it would be like to feel that way but an acceptance that someone could seems to be perfectly reasonable. I accept that others might feel that way. Maybe some white person out there, who has been seen and treated as white their whole life, “feels black” – whatever that means. That’s possible. But if so, who cares? They’re white. It doesn’t matter if they feel black – they’re not. “Feeling black” doesn’t mean anything, at least not unless you’ve been identified and treated as black by the rest of society for your whole life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/295 "2021-02-09T12:07:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You have a person who has always believed they are a woman, lived as a woman, etc, and at some later time they now believe they are a man. This doesn’t match any of my trans friends. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/296 "2021-02-09T12:09:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I accept that others might feel that way. Maybe some white person out there, who has been seen and treated as white their whole life, “feels black” – whatever that means. That’s possible. But if so, who cares? They’re white. It doesn’t matter if they feel black – they’re not. “Feeling black” doesn’t mean anything, at least not unless you’ve been identified and treated as black by the rest of society for your whole life. Substitute “woman” and “man” into the paragraph above. I still can’t see a solid reason why you’d extend the courtesy of accepting self-identity to a male who identifies as a woman, but not do the same for a person who identifies as a racial group other than their birth group. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/297 "2021-02-09T12:10:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s all very well saying that, but in reality if some organisation wanted to reserve scholarships for cis women, they’d be declared transphobic within the day. Every activist and journalist would rush to condemn them. How convenient for you. Of course, you have no cite, do you? Cis women face real challenges, some of which may not be faced by trans women. The trans activists I know and have read from don’t disagree with this. If someone (who didn’t have any history of transphobia or other types of bigotry) created a scholarship meant for cis women that didn’t use any transphobic or otherwise hateful language (i.e. didn’t try to deny that trans women are women, didn’t otherwise denigrate trans people), then I don’t think they’d get any serious pushback. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/298 "2021-02-09T12:10:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “feels black” – whatever that means. There’s the rub. What _does_ it mean to “feel Black”? Because all my “feeling Coloured” is intimately tied to my heritage and upbringing - and, yes, a little bit to aspects of my phenotype. Although not the one aspect racists usually emphasise. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/299 "2021-02-09T12:13:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Substitute “woman” and “man” into the paragraph above. > I still can’t see a solid reason why you’d extend the courtesy of accepting self-identity to a male who identifies as a woman, but not do the same for a person who identifies as a racial group other than their birth group. Because I don’t trust a white person who would do this. I think the bar to clear to assume anything other than bad faith (for a white person who tried this) is monumentally high. White people don’t, and shouldn’t, get to claim that they/we are not white. We’re white. That comes with a lot of privileges, and also responsibility – the responsibility to try and dismantle whiteness (the system, not the race). Pretending we’re not white is pretty much the opposite of this. Pretending we’re not white is a slap in the face to those who have actually suffered from racism and discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117/300 "2021-02-09T12:14:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s the rub. What _does_ it mean to “feel Black”? Because all my “feeling Coloured” is intimately tied to my heritage and upbringing - and, yes, a little bit to aspects of my phenotype. Although not the one aspect racists usually emphasise. Well quite, I have lighter skin but do I feel “white”? Well no, I don’t even know what the concept would mean. But the same can also be said of gender, what does it mean to _feel_ like a man or a woman? Do I feel like a man? I honestly don’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-transracial-what-is-the-essential-difference/932117.md?page=16)