# Transgender weightlifter wins women's competition. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 22, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763 "2017-03-22T15:06:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/21 "2017-03-22T22:48:36Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Paywall. > > If benefits last that long, then why do athletes take steroids year round and risk detection? In fields of competition where 0.1% makes a difference a proportion of a benefit is not the same as the full benefit. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/22 "2017-03-22T23:09:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In fields of competition where 0.1% makes a difference a proportion of a benefit is not the same as the full benefit. [BBC](http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-24730151) > [@](#): > > **Experiments with mice** showed that a brief exposure to testosterone allowed the mice to rapidly regain muscle later in their lives. > > The scientist behind the study says that if a similar effect can be shown in humans, it should lead to a lifetime ban for dopers. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/23 "2017-03-23T05:47:01Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > If there are now 40+ (or whatever the current count is) different genders, it only makes sense to have the same number of divisions in each sport. Much simpler: just eliminate the gender divisions. Why not? All genders are equal, right? Where body weight is a factor, those divisions should be kept. ---
**Author:** ![NorthernStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c77e96/32.png) [@NorthernStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NorthernStar)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/24 "2017-03-23T11:49:46Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Much simpler: just eliminate the gender divisions. Why not? All genders are equal, right? Where body weight is a factor, those divisions should be kept. Sure, if you aren’t concerned by the fact that this would virtually eliminate the presence of women in top level competitive physical/contact sports (in the absence of some sort of special quota system, in which case you’d still have to deal with the question of eligibility). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/25 "2017-03-23T11:57:32Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Much simpler: just eliminate the gender divisions. Why not? **All genders are equal, right?** Where body weight is a factor, those divisions should be kept. At identical bodyweight, men will always have more muscle mass. All genders are equal in the sense of being allowed to compete. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/26 "2017-03-23T12:31:37Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Hubbard’s overall performance is more in line with other female competitors in her weight division than it is with male competitors of similar size. Most of the men would have beaten her handily. She was the heaviest woman competing. It seems to me that any competitive advantage is due to her size rather than to lingering effects of testosterone. I don’t buy your analysis here, sorry. That Hubbard’s performance would not have won in the men’s competition misses the point; her performance was much better than all the other women. To use a comparison hat has actually been discussed before, suppose you took the world’s 200th best male tennis player, had him become a woman two months prior to the event, and compete in the women’s Wimbledon. The result would be pretty clear; she would win the tournament easily. She would never lose a set or come close to it. But it would make no sense to say that Francine, once Frank, could not have had an advantage because, hey, she’s clearly not as good as Roger Federer, and can’t even hold a candle to Milos Raonic. The very reason we have separate men’s and women’s sports tournaments is women cannot hope to compete in 99.999% of sports. They’d just be blown off the map, and a competitor who was, in fact, a total mediocrity, relatively speaking, in the men’s division can easily win the women’s. Now, I’m no biologist and can’t tell you to what degree Hubbard’s male characteristics helped her, but it’s hard to imagine they didn’t. It’s also worth noting there’s a hell of a lot more to this story besides the issue of transgenderism; wanna guess what rich person sponsored this event? Yup. Laurel Hubbard. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/27 "2017-03-23T12:50:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t buy your analysis here, sorry. > > That Hubbard’s performance would not have won in the men’s competition misses the point; her performance was much better than all the other women. > > To use a comparison hat has actually been discussed before, suppose you took the world’s 200th best male tennis player, **had him become a woman two months prior to the event,** and compete in the women’s Wimbledon. The result would be pretty clear; she would win the tournament easily. She would never lose a set or come close to it. But it would make no sense to say that Francine, once Frank, could not have had an advantage because, hey, she’s clearly not as good as Roger Federer, and can’t even hold a candle to Milos Raonic. > > The very reason we have separate men’s and women’s sports tournaments is women cannot hope to compete in 99.999% of sports. They’d just be blown off the map, and a competitor who was, in fact, a total mediocrity, relatively speaking, in the men’s division can easily win the women’s. > > Now, I’m no biologist and can’t tell you to what degree Hubbard’s male characteristics helped her, but it’s hard to imagine they didn’t. It’s also worth noting there’s a hell of a lot more to this story besides the issue of transgenderism; wanna guess what rich person sponsored this event? Yup. Laurel Hubbard. I don’t know Wimbledon’s rules on this (or whatever group handle int’l tennis) but [the IOC:](https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf)(PDF) > [@](#): > > 1. > > Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction. > > 2.Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions: > 2.1. > **The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The > declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum > of four years.** > 2.2.\*\*The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition \*\*(with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition). > > Page > 3 > > 2.3.The athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category. > 2.4. > Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the > event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition > will be suspended for 12 months ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/28 "2017-03-23T13:32:24Z")
This is where PC crosses the line. Topics like this should not even be up for discussion. We have male and female sports. You cannot turn a male into a female or vice versa with any amount of surgery or hormone replacement, at least once they have become adults. A transgender female is exactly that not a female. Maybe a class for transgender would be better. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/29 "2017-03-23T13:43:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > 20kg is 44lb. And this lady is huge! Men on average are larger than women. In the unrestricted weight classes that will matter. _Sigh_ And I know that. I should not post after midnight. > [@cwthree](#): > > Hubbard’s overall performance is more in line with other female competitors in her weight division than it is with male competitors of similar size. Most of the men would have beaten her handily. She was the heaviest woman competing. It seems to me that any competitive advantage is due to her size rather than to lingering effects of testosterone. Of course, her size is the lingering effect of being born with a Y-chromosome. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/30 "2017-03-23T13:54:16Z")
+1 for being pro-transgender rights and also believing this is a grossly unfair win. The rules should be changed to chromosomal sex divisions with admittedly tough decisions regarding intersex competitors. PC can go to far and this is an instance. I think the left really shoots itself in the foot by fighting these fights. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/31 "2017-03-23T14:22:40Z")
How is this different than an athlete who uses HGH to gain a hormonal advantage over their competition? I am all for equal rights for transgenders, but they cannot compete in women-only events, they will always have an advantage. They either compete with men or they need their own category. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/32 "2017-03-23T14:50:41Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > If there are now 40+ (or whatever the current count is) different genders, it only makes sense to have the same number of divisions in each sport. And “Participation” Trophies for ALL! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/33 "2017-03-23T15:52:49Z")
The castration plus addition of female hormones might reduce the transgendered woman’s muscle advantage, but I’ll bet it doesn’t affect bones. The new woman retains her male skeleton, complete with (generally) larger size and heftier ligament attachment points. So those muscles have the advantage of longer levers to work on and are less liable to ligament pulls and such. It seems to me that allowing transgendered woman to compete in “women only” events cannot be made fair. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/34 "2017-03-23T17:29:22Z")
Just end segregation in sport. No more men’s or women’s leagues. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/35 "2017-03-23T18:21:21Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Just end segregation in sport. No more men’s or women’s leagues. So you are saying that Olympic lifting should eliminate the snatch? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/36 "2017-03-23T18:27:24Z")
We literally [just did this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820148) - for those who haven’t read that thread, I urge you to do so. I for one found it very instructive, in fact it was a rare instance of having my opinion changed by something I read. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/37 "2017-03-23T20:45:52Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Of course, her size is the lingering effect of being born with a Y-chromosome. Not necessarily. There are - admittedly, not a big portion of the population - biological females who are tall and large-boned. Without looking at Hubbard’s cis female relatives, it’s not possible to say whether she’s substantially taller, etc. than she would have been had she not experienced a typical male puberty. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/38 "2017-03-23T21:15:05Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Well, the way I see it, MtF athletes cannot win. Because if they do win, others will cite their unfair advantage, and there may in fact be an advantage. And if they don’t win, no comment. Pretty much. Or they bring up the “bones and ligaments” theory which sounds like “common sense” but actually they never supply medical or research citations proving that this equates to any actual sports advantage (there’s even some evidence that there may be a small disadvantage in some sports IIRC (not at my computer to look up my references so I’ll hold on that for now). > [@](#): > > But if transgender women begin consistently winning athletic contests I think that confirms that there is an advantage. I have no idea if it’s important, because the other competitors who are at or near the top also have genetic advantages, to start out with. And this is a key point - we’re NOT winning contests consistently, we’re NOT even by a long shot dominating ANY sport, and we’re NOT threatening any cisgender athlete’s chances of getting their fame n’ glory in sports. The entire “issue” is just a subtle bigotry tactic because the people opposed to people like me competing cannot produce proof that people like me who have undergone hormone therapy and/or surgery actually have an unbalancing disadvantage in sports. And like DeadCat wrote, didn’t we just do this topic? Doesn’t it seem like we do this topic every 3 months? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/39 "2017-03-23T21:18:09Z")
In most cases, when we’re talking about sex or gender, it’s ambiguous whether we’re referring to the mind or the body. Sports, though, are by definition bodily competition, and so different competitions for men and women in sports must mean for people with male and female bodies. Whether the people with those bodies have male or female minds is irrelevant for purposes of this question. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/40 "2017-03-23T22:11:23Z")
Una Persson: > [@](#): > > The entire “issue” is just a subtle bigotry tactic because the people opposed to people like me competing cannot produce proof that people like me who have undergone hormone therapy and/or surgery actually have an unbalancing disadvantage in sports. Is it bigotry when none other than Renee Richards expresses a similar opinion? From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards): > [@](#): > > “Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763.md?page=3)