# Transgender weightlifter wins women's competition. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 22, 2017, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763 "2017-03-22T15:06:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/41 "2017-03-23T22:15:29Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Una Persson: > > Is it bigotry when none other than Renee Richards expresses a similar opinion? From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards): What was the relative levels of play between the men and women at the time? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/42 "2017-03-23T22:36:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you are saying that Olympic lifting should eliminate the snatch? > > Regards, > Shodan And be left with nothing but the jerk? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/43 "2017-03-23T22:47:59Z")
This is no different than saying we should eliminate black athletes because they have certain advantages over the white ones. Even down to the fact that it’s not like trans women are winning everything. You say we have no evidence that black athletes have these advantages? Well, we have the anecdotes. Just like you’re using for the trans issue. We have no actual studies. The default is that trans women are equal to cis women. You are required to prove otherwise. And, even then, we have to ask whether the advantage is enough to actually matter so much that we’d rather discriminate against an oft-discrimated minority just to make a less discriminated majority happy. I for one would need to see trans women athletes take up more than a single top spot in multiple sports before I would say it was some huge problem that needed to be dealt with. And, even then, the solution would definitely NOT be to eliminate trans athletes from competing. That’s the other thing that pisses me off about this. No mind is being paid to what you’re doing to the trans athletes in these setups. No attempt is being made to make it fair for BOTH sides. All that matters is that it’s “fair” for the cis women. That’s not to say I know the solution to that problem. But it definitely is not banning trans athletes. Period. Find a solution that isn’t discriminatory. Maybe have people compete based on ability, regardless of gender. And, again, that’s only if we actually find a problem when we do the work. And that we determine the problem is large enough that something needs to be done, and we can’t just accept that the occasional trans athlete might have a small genetic advantage. In short, nothing about the anti-trans side of this debate works. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/44 "2017-03-24T00:43:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You say we have no evidence that black athletes have these advantages? Well, we have the anecdotes. No, there is evidence of that. > [@](#): > > Just like you’re using for the trans issue. We have no actual studies. There was a study presented in this very thread. Steroids are synthetic versions of testosterone and are generally taken with actual testosterone. The benefits of taking them last for years. We can see that in humans, too. Former professional bodybuilders don’t look like former natural competing bodybuilders. Not even close. > [@](#): > > The default is that trans women are equal to cis women. You are required to prove otherwise. You are just claiming that by fiat. No such default exists. How quickly after transitioning do they lose enough strength to make them “equal” to cis women? Is the default answer that it happens instantaneously? Laurel Hubbard is 39. All I can find online is that she transitioned in her mid-30s. That’s as little as two years ago. Here is a study showing the difference in muscle fiber characteristics between men and women that are relevant in men being stronger. It also shows men have a higher proportion of their lean tissue distributed in the upper body. Both facts are of high importance in Olympic lifting. > **[Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8477683/)** > > Strength and muscle characteristics were examined in biceps brachii and vastus lateralis of eight men and eight women. Measurements included motor unit number, size and activation and voluntary strength of the elbow flexors and knee extensors. Fiber... Why aren’t you required to show those fibers have changed significantly enough, and that the proportions of muscle mass in higher to lower body have shifted enough after her becoming transgendered to be deemed comparable to that of a cis woman? > [@](#): > > And, even then, the solution would definitely NOT be to eliminate trans athletes from competing. That’s the other thing that pisses me off about this. No mind is being paid to what you’re doing to the trans athletes in these setups. No attempt is being made to make it fair for BOTH sides. All that matters is that it’s “fair” for the cis women. How do you know? What attempt can be made other than to think of solutions? You’re sure people haven’t tried thinking? > [@](#): > > That’s not to say I know the solution to that problem. But it definitely is not banning trans athletes. Period. So, you don’t know the solution, but even if you found trans athletes competing with cis women to be a huge problem that needed to be dealt with, you don’t think having them not competing with cis women to be a solution. But neither is any solution that you’re aware of. “They” should just come up with one…because a better one must exist. > [@](#): > > Find a solution that isn’t discriminatory. Are you for putting a stop to men competing with women too, or is that kind of discrimination okay? > [@](#): > > Maybe have people compete based on ability, regardless of gender. Weightlifters will feign how much they can lift until competition time. Not gonna work. > [@](#): > > In short, nothing about the anti-trans side of this debate works. But there just _must_ be some solution that’s fair to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/45 "2017-03-24T03:28:38Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Una Persson: > > Is it bigotry when none other than Renee Richards expresses a similar opinion? From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards): Yes it is. Richards is just one person with one opinion. And she’s also a loon, and this has been discussed on this message board prior. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/46 "2017-03-24T05:41:10Z")
Hey, if you are a male who would rather live as a female, that’s cool. And likewise, if you are female who would rather live as a male, that’s cool too. I don’t have a problem with it either way. But I think in either case, you need to exempt yourself from gender-segregated sporting competitions, but it just isn’t fair anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/47 "2017-03-24T07:14:21Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > But I think in either case, you need to exempt yourself from gender-segregated sporting competitions, but it just isn’t fair anymore. So you want to [exclude people from athletics on the basis of sex](http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#how), then. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/48 "2017-03-24T08:38:03Z")
I see nothing discriminatory at all in trying to ensure there is a level playing-field for all in sports. It isn’t bigotry to ask whether transgenders in female sports have an advantage, it’s simply treating them in exactly the same way as any competitor, checking if any unfair advantage exists, ie drugs, transgenderism, whatever. If it doesn’t then fine but to pretend these questions should not be asked is to treat transgenders differently, the very way I would have thought they do not want to be treated. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/49 "2017-03-24T09:59:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sports, though, are by definition bodily competition, and so different competitions for men and women in sports must mean for people with male and female bodies. Whether the people with those bodies have male or female minds is irrelevant for purposes of this question. If you’re the type who thinks there’s actually such as a thing as “female” and “male” minds, a concept that conservatives and third wave feminists have somehow come to agree upon, wouldn’t that be relevant? Depends on which stereotypes one wants to sling, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/50 "2017-03-24T15:34:00Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I see nothing discriminatory at all in trying to ensure there is a level playing-field for all in sports. It isn’t bigotry to ask whether transgenders in female sports have an advantage, it’s simply treating them in exactly the same way as any competitor, checking if any unfair advantage exists, ie drugs, transgenderism, whatever. If it doesn’t then fine but to pretend these questions should not be asked is to treat transgenders differently, the very way I would have thought they do not want to be treated. Then why aren’t trans women dominating women’s sports? Think of all the money and sponsorships im women’s tennis. Surely some trans woman somewhere has the ability to be a pro player. Why hasn’t this happened? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/51 "2017-03-24T15:45:29Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Then why aren’t trans women dominating women’s sports? Think of all the money and sponsorships im women’s tennis. Surely some trans woman somewhere has the ability to be a pro player. Why hasn’t this happened? [Wiki says](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States) > [@](#): > > An earlier report published in April 2011 by the Williams Institute estimated that 3.8 percent of Americans identified as gay/lesbian, bisexual, or transgender: 1.7 percent as lesbian or gay, 1.8 percent as bisexual, and 0.3 percent as transgender. Then consider how small the percentage of the population reaches the pro level of a given sport. I expect a pretty small overlap. Given the earning power at the pro level(for some sports) I doubt any athlete who is biologically male would transit during their career. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/52 "2017-03-24T15:46:34Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Then why aren’t trans women dominating women’s sports? Think of all the money and sponsorships im women’s tennis. Surely some trans woman somewhere has the ability to be a pro player. Why hasn’t this happened? There are many possible reasons. One possible reason could be that less than 1% of women identify as transgender. And that’s just “identify” as. I couldn’t find statistics on how many have actually transitioned so that [insert sports association] will also consider them as transgendered. Multiply that by how many men have enough tennis skills to be competitive against a professional woman tennis player, and we may just be down to an odds thing. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/53 "2017-03-24T18:44:03Z")
Would it be the worst thing ever to just have female sports limited to people who were born female and currently identify as female? And all other athletes compete in the other category? I know it’s not perfect. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/54 "2017-03-24T19:05:11Z")
^ I don’t think you’re saying what you mean to say. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/55 "2017-03-24T19:15:15Z")
What do you think I’m saying and what do you think I mean? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/56 "2017-03-24T19:19:22Z")
Who are “all other athletes”? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/57 "2017-03-24T19:54:05Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Who are “all other athletes”? 1. natal male identifying as male 2. natal male identifying as female 3. natal female identifying as male 4. other? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/58 "2017-03-24T21:34:29Z")
So categories 1, 2, 3, and 4 can all compete together but cis women must only compete against one another, or do you think there should be five categories? If the latter, I stand by what I said in post 54. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/59 "2017-03-24T22:04:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you are saying that Olympic lifting should eliminate the snatch? > > Regards, > Shodan You should have been here just now to see me spit out my cheese doodle! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763/60 "2017-03-24T22:29:49Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Would it be the worst thing ever to just have female sports limited to people who were born female and currently identify as female? And all other athletes compete in the other category? We could refer to the latter as _general_ Olympics, and the former as _special_ Olympics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgender-weightlifter-wins-womens-competition/782763.md?page=4)