# Transgendered 6 Year Old Wins Rights Case **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831 "2013-06-24T23:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/41 "2013-06-27T17:53:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How old is “old enough?” Age of consent, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/42 "2013-06-27T17:54:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How is it not? A male who lives and identifies as a female does not cease to be male, any more than a blue-eyed person who wears brown contact lenses ceases to be blue-eyed. Can you distinguish a blue-eyed person’s brain from a brown-eyed person’s? Can you distinguish a male and a female brain? Yes, gender is biological determined. But it must be much deeper than “penis versus vagina” if we can actually see structural differences in our brains. If the brain is the center of our minds, personalities, and whatever it is that makes us who we are, one could make the defensible argument that the hardwiring of our brains is the only criterion that matters when it comes to an individual’s gender. When the genitals are coherent with the brain, great. But the brain’s gender trumps the body’s. I don’t know how far we are in using brain anatomy as a diagnostic criterion for gender dysmorphia, but defining gender in this way makes more sense to me than forcing people to conform against their will to whatever is between their legs. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/43 "2013-06-27T18:06:36Z")
Everybody who thinks that gender can be forced or determined should read, and I can’t recommend this enough, “As Nature Made Him,” about David Reimer by John Colapinto. In it, [David Reimer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer), after a botched circumcision, is raised as a girl. Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and posted many, many scientific reviews that the experiment was successful and was evidence that you can teach gender identity. In reality, the experiment was a resounding failure, causing lifelong problems for Reimer, including depression, financial instability, troubled marriage and relationships, and eventually culminating in suicide. It is a heartbreaking book. Here are two parents who loved their boys very, very much, (David had a twin) and did everything the doctors told them was right. But no matter what they did, David in his head was a boy, and even though he was being raised as a girl made no difference. Now you will say, “but he was a boy in the first place!” And you can say that…but that’s not my point. My point is just for people to read the book and for a few moments step into the head of someone whose gender does not match their outside appearance. This book opened my eyes so much to the plight of transgenders and transsexuals. Money continued to insist for decades after it was clear the experiment was a failure that it was a success. I think this has seeped into the heads of a lot of doctors and people, and people might think you can just raise a boy with a girl brain as a boy and it will be fine, or vice versa. As I said, I’m not thrilled about this being a huge court case, but the fact is, it shouldn’t even need to be. Let her use the other bathroom. If there are in fact Peeping Tom problems, can we deal with those on a case-by-case basis? Can’t we just accept that the brain is far more complicated than we know, and there’s so much to learn? I’m not saying I have all of the answers, or even know that much. All I know is David’s story touched me very much. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/44 "2013-06-27T18:07:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t know how far we are in using brain anatomy as a diagnostic criterion for gender dysmorphia, but defining gender in this way makes more sense to me than forcing people to conform against their will to whatever is between their legs. I don’t see it as a matter of forcing people to conform to anything. As I said above, I have no issue with an adult male who thinks of himself as female choosing to live that way, or vice versa. Where I draw the line is saying that that self-identification _changes that person’s gender_ in any objective sense of the term, or that transgendered persons were “born in the wrong body”. Barring extra chromosomes or malformed sexual organs that require surgical correction, the body a person was meant to be born in is the body that they were born in, whatever identity they may wish to assume later in life notwithstanding. And I object to the idea that the bathroom a person uses is connected to their social self-identification rather than their biological condition, and the fact that I even have to say that just boggles my mind. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/45 "2013-06-27T18:31:43Z")
I think some folks just have a hard time accepting the transgendered. I see it all the time - barely a week goes by without somebody editing [the Wendy Carlos Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Carlos)to change all the female pronouns to male ones. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/46 "2013-06-27T18:49:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Age of consent, I’d say. What other medical conditions do you think should go untreated until someone turns eighteen? Depression? Diabetes? Sucking chest wounds? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/47 "2013-06-27T19:01:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What other medical conditions do you think should go untreated until someone turns eighteen? Depression? Diabetes? Sucking chest wounds? I’m not sure how “wanting to wear nontraditional clothes and be addressed by a different pronoun” qualifies as a medical condition. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/48 "2013-06-27T19:02:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How old is “old enough?” 6 months. 8 months at the latest. Ridiculous? Perhaps, but it illustrates the problem. How old is old enough for the child to understand what it means to live as a girl when they are biologically male? How old is old enough to be sure that this choice is about gender and not simply a dislike of cars and trucks and preference for skirts and the color pink? If 6 is obviously old enough, what age does it really become questionable? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/49 "2013-06-27T19:14:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not sure how “wanting to wear nontraditional clothes and be addressed by a different pronoun” qualifies as a medical condition. If science advances to the point where we can identify transgendered people from their living brains (or can we presently only do so from their dead brains?) then I see no reason to treat them by their outward characteristics rather than the contents of their brains. If your brain were transported into the body of Paula Deen, would you _be_ Paula Deen? I’d say you’d probably argue that you’d still be yourself. You are not your body, you are your brain. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/50 "2013-06-27T19:34:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not sure how “wanting to wear nontraditional clothes and be addressed by a different pronoun” qualifies as a medical condition. Maybe you should educate yourself instead of posting bigoted crap in this thread? Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/51 "2013-06-27T19:36:53Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I object to those photos on the grounds that sand is NOT yucky. Do you mean sand inside or outside of a children’s sandbox? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/52 "2013-06-27T19:37:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > If your brain were transported into the body of Paula Deen, would you _be_ Paula Deen? I’d say you’d probably argue that you’d still be yourself. You are not your body, you are your brain. The brain is a part of the body. How can I not be what I am? In the scenario you propose, I’d certainly be free to deny that I am Paula Deen, and nobody would point a gun at me and force me to wear ankle-length skirts or put a stick of butter in my morning coffee, but in the eyes of the law, the state, and society in general, I would continue to be Paula Deen in spite of those protestations. On a less metaphysical note, I simply don’t see how you can divorce gender from one’s physical nature. Males are those humans who possess a Y chromosome; females are those who do not. Everything else associated with gender - manner of dress, role in a relationship/family or society at large, expected responses to major life events - is cultural, and the means in which it is expressed externally implies nothing about the biological nature of the person doing the expressing. I don’t see how choosing, as an adult who is of sound mind and fully vested of their rights as a human being, choosing to live a nontraditional lifestyle (which I have no problem with them doing) demands that the state act as if their biological nature has been altered. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/53 "2013-06-27T19:42:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t see it as a matter of forcing people to conform to anything. As I said above, I have no issue with an adult male who thinks of himself as female choosing to live that way, or vice versa. > > **Where I draw the line is saying that that self-identification _changes that person’s gender_ in any objective sense of the term,** or that transgendered persons were “born in the wrong body”. Barring extra chromosomes or malformed sexual organs that require surgical correction, the body a person was meant to be born in is the body that they were born in, whatever identity they may wish to assume later in life notwithstanding. > > And I object to the idea that the bathroom a person uses is connected to their social self-identification rather than their biological condition, and the fact that I even have to say that just boggles my mind. Actually, the word “gender” carries a strong connotation of mental or social sexual identity, as opposed to the more biological-weighted term “sex.” And by the way, if you’re going to hold forth on what makes someone “legitimately” transgender, you should probably do a tiny bit of homework on the actual biological influences we currently know about, which go beyond extra chromosomes and intersexual organs and include hormonal influences and variations in receptors for hormones in utero. And why on earth would you think it’s somehow self-evident that people with (clearly identifiable, of course - no “malformed” people need apply) penises need to use a separate bathroom from those with “proper” vulvas? Do you realize this is entirely a social convention? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/54 "2013-06-27T20:37:40Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Actually, the word “gender” carries a strong connotation of mental or social sexual identity, as opposed to the more biological-weighted term “sex.” I’ve never understood the former to be anything other than a more politically correct euphemism for the latter. > [@](#): > > And why on earth would you think it’s somehow self-evident that people with (clearly identifiable, of course - no “malformed” people need apply) penises need to use a separate bathroom from those with “proper” vulvas? Men’s bathrooms contain fixtures intended to serve persons possessing male organs (i.e. urinals). Women’s bathrooms contain fixtures intended to serve persons possessing female organs (i.e. wall-mounted bins for disposal of hygiene products). ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/55 "2013-06-27T21:20:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Males are those humans who possess a Y chromosome; females are those who do not. Everything else associated with gender - manner of dress, role in a relationship/family or society at large, expected responses to major life events - is cultural, and the means in which it is expressed externally implies nothing about the biological nature of the person doing the expressing. I don’t see how choosing, as an adult who is of sound mind and fully vested of their rights as a human being, choosing to live a nontraditional lifestyle (which I have no problem with them doing) demands that the state act as if their biological nature has been altered. False. So very, very false. A quick google turns up [this article](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.UcyoZPmfjmc) about how the brain shows ‘male’ and ‘female’-ness, which does not always correspond to sex organs. Or [this article](http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/data/journals/ajp/3834/07aj1499.pdf) **(pdf)** that explains how the chromosomes relate to hormone production during gestation, and how variation and disruption of those hormones can cause people to develop characteristics of a gender counter to their chromosomes (including the ‘brain’ of the opposite gender). Possessing a Y chromosome does not make me male, but the hormonal results of that chromosome do. It doesn’t always work out that way for everybody. The science, while far from complete, shows us (and has for many years) that gender is in fact **not** a cultural construct as you insist it is. There are cultural elements of gender expression, for sure, and there are people who enjoy playing with and challenging those cultural norms. This does not change the fact that there are people who have brains that are gendered differently than their sex organs, and that those differences exist at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/56 "2013-06-27T21:34:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Men’s bathrooms contain fixtures intended to serve persons possessing male organs (i.e. urinals). Women’s bathrooms contain fixtures intended to serve persons possessing female organs (i.e. wall-mounted bins for disposal of hygiene products). It certainly is odd how nobody at my work place seems to have an issue using the washrooms when they are reversed due to maintenance in that case (for whole days at a time on some occasions). ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/57 "2013-06-27T21:51:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve never understood the former to be anything other than a more politically correct euphemism for the latter. Then you literally have no idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/58 "2013-06-27T22:20:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not sure how “wanting to wear nontraditional clothes and be addressed by a different pronoun” qualifies as a medical condition. You’re not sure how a recognized diagnosis whose treatment often requires major surgery qualifies as a medical condition? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/59 "2013-06-27T22:37:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re not sure how a recognized diagnosis whose treatment often requires major surgery qualifies as a medical condition? Right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831/60 "2013-06-28T00:16:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The diagnostic criteria for depression can actually be found [rather easily](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/DS00175/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis), and there are in fact [physical tests](http://www.nia.nih.gov/alzheimers/topics/diagnosis#how) that can help determine a possible or probable diagnosis of Alzheimer’s (or at least rule out other causes with similar symptoms), so I’m not sure those two examples really help your case. While you’re right that the specifics of this case are necessarily private, the diagnostic criteria should not be, and I would also be curious to know exactly what they are— and whether the criteria differ for a patient as young as this one. A simple Google search brings to light multiple examples of the answer you seek. Behold the official diagnostic criteria for being transgender! > [@](#): > > A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following: > (1) repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex > (2) in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing > (3) strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make-believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex > (4) intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex > (5) strong preference for playmates of the other sex. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex. > B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the following: in boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough-and-tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games, and activities; in girls, rejection of urinating in a sitting position, assertion that she has or will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion toward normative feminine clothing. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex. > C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition. > D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. So there you go. Note the frequent repetition of “strong and persistent” and elimination of someone wanting the perceived social privileges of the other gender without actually wanting to physically be the other gender. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The kid wants to be dressed like his sisters, and that’s something to be diagnosed? No, that’s cross-dressing and it’s not the same thing. It’s NOT about dressing up – it’s about wanting to physically be other than the way you were born. > [@monstro](#): > > Can you distinguish a male and a female brain? Yes, remarkably enough there are markers for male and female in the human brain. Unfortunately, for the most part they can only be reliably observed after death. > [@Smapti](#): > > Where I draw the line is saying that that self-identification _changes that person’s gender_ in any objective sense of the term, or that transgendered persons were “born in the wrong body”. Well, from what I gather talking to transgender people is that don’t feel they’re “changing their gender” - they believe they are changing their _bodies_ to match their gender. > [@Ludovic](#): > > If science advances to the point where we can identify transgendered people from their living brains (or can we presently only do so from their dead brains?) then I see no reason to treat them by their outward characteristics rather than the contents of their brains. At present, only from dead brains and there hasn’t been a large enough sample to even be entirely sure of that. There IS a structure that seems to reliably distinguish the transgendered from the cisgendered but the sample size is small due to the rarity of dead transgender brains available for study. > [@Smapti](#): > > Males are those humans who possess a Y chromosome; females are those who do not. Not always – [there are people born with male genitalia who have XX chromosomes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xx_male), and [people born with female genitalia who have XY chromosomes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_Female) Aside from that – if it turns out that transgender people really do have brain structure(s) of a different sex than their genitalia then wouldn’t transgender actually be a sort of intersex condition? An if it is an intersex condition how do you think it should be treated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-6-year-old-wins-rights-case/661831.md?page=4)