# Transgendered Dopers - A Question about pronouns **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156 "2004-11-22T19:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NotWithoutRage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotWithoutRage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotWithoutRage)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/1 "2004-11-22T19:35:44Z")
OK, what’s the deal with a lot of the younger transgendered kids insisting that they are gender neutral? I’m as open minded as I can possibly be, but I don’t see the advantage to saying “Ze went to the store” instead of she or he. I don’t mind if you want to go by either pronoun, I just want to understand. Do they consider themselves a third sex? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/2 "2004-11-22T19:41:25Z")
I’m an old lady, so I don’t know _what_ the kids are saying these days, with their rock’n’ roll and their iPods. When I was living as a man, I expected to be called “he,” and when I changed over, “she.” The latter took some prompting, and, sadly, still does on rare occasions, even after 27 years. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/3 "2004-11-22T22:04:16Z")
I used to be a emember of a mailing list that had a lot of transgendered participants. The artbitrary assigning of gender neutral pornouns was used by some as a blanket alternative to _any_ gender specific pronouns. (This was not unique to the transgenedered posters, but there were a few, um, “enthusiastic” feminists that would do this too.) There was one person in particular hated _any_ use of “he”, “she”, “his”, “hers”, “him”, “her.” None of those terms exisited in her world at all (as far as she was concerned). Not just when referring to transgendered individuals, but _anyone_. Kinda like “letter carrier” instead of “postman” – all gender neutral, all the time. Drove me batshit actually. I had no idea who she was talking about. Example: Whereas I would say: “My aunt and her husband built a boat. She used the pneumatic nail gun while he used the drill. She nailed his hand and he needed stitches.” This woman would say something like: “My aunt and zer husband built a boat. Zie used the nail gun and zie used the drill. Zie nailed zer hand and zie needed stiches.” WTF is that??? 😕 Who used which tool and did what to whom? Did she hurt her own hand or his? Wait, or did he hurt his wife’s hand? Who had the nail gun again? I’m telling you. It drove me batshit. ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/4 "2004-11-22T22:23:07Z")
How does changing the word from he to zie make any bit of difference if you’re going to change her to zer? It’s still gender specific. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/5 "2004-11-22T22:23:52Z")
I don’t understand the point they’re trying to make. I guess it’s your right to be called anything you want to be called, but it would make for slow, laborious conversation. How do you distinguish between the two people you’re talking about? My sister changed her name. For no reason that she cared to share with us. I call her by her old name most of the time, but I introduce her by her new name. I try to refer to her as “New Name” when I’m around people that aren’t family. But I usually just call her by her childhood nickname and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/6 "2004-11-22T22:40:57Z")
> [@FilmGeek](#): > > How does changing the word from he to zie make any bit of difference if you’re going to change her to zer? It’s still gender specific. You’re getting your subjects, objects, and possessives mixed up because of the “sound”. He AND she were both “zie”. (Subject pronoun.) Ex/ He danced and she sang = Zie danced and zie sang. His AND her were both “zer”. (Possessive) Ex/ His dog ate her steak = Zer dog ate zer steak. I don’t even remember how it worked for the “direct object” as in: “I punched him and kicked her.” Maybe it was “zem” or “zip” or “zed” or “zoom-zoom”. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/7 "2004-11-22T22:48:50Z")
Oh, the other pronoun is “zis”. And another alternative in use is : Ey = he/she (subject) He laughed, she cried = Ey laughed, ey cried Eir = his/her (possessive) His dog, her cat = Eir dog, eir cat Em = him/her (objective) Kissed him, hugged her = Kissed em, hugged em These ones seemed to be derived the the not-quite-grammatically-correct (but commonly used) substition of the plural pronouns “they”, “their”, and “them.” ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/8 "2004-11-22T22:57:08Z")
Oh, now that I remember the “zis”, I realize I may have mized up the "Z"s (so confusing!!! Grrrr!) I think it may actually be: He/she = Ze His/her = Zis Him/her = Zer I find it all too convoluted. Sure it will help with unknowns. Like technically: “If you love someone, set them free” is wrong because “some_one_” is singular but “them” is plural. So the idea is to give you the choice between “If you love somene, set him/her free”, the masculine default “if you love someone, set him free” or the new-fangled “if you love someone, set zer free.” But in the case of things like “he said, she said” using “ze said, ze said” is NOT helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/9 "2004-11-23T00:15:51Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > This woman would say something like: “My aunt and zer husband built a boat. Zie used the nail gun and zie used the drill. Zie nailed zer hand and zie needed stiches.” Jesus, Kee-rist, she sounds like Frau Farbissina. ---
**Author:** ![MaceMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@MaceMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaceMan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/10 "2004-11-23T04:33:43Z")
I always wonder how people who are so obsessed with the gender of pronouns deal with languages like French, where everything is gendered. I’ve gotten chastised by some feminist acquantainces for referring to a group as “you guys,” even when all in the group were female. When I use it in this context, it is completely neuter. Maybe because of the unique usage I was exposed to growing up, I don’t even consider the fact that someone could think “you guys” as a male moun being used to generalize a group. No one says “y’all” around here. ---
**Author:** ![paulberserker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@paulberserker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulberserker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/11 "2004-11-23T11:10:33Z")
I’ve never heard of this before at all, all the ‘zie’ and ‘zer’. Having a conversation must be like wading through treacle. There comes a point where you can take that kind of thing too far IMO. I’d also imagine it must be really difficult to keep that kind of thing up all the time after using gender specifics all your life. Do the people you know keep it up, or slip back into normal everyday usage sometimes? As an aside, i’d assume somebody was german or something if they talked in that way. YMMV, but i’d be saying speak properly after 2 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/12 "2004-11-23T13:11:56Z")
> [@paulberserker](#): > > There comes a point where you can take that kind of thing too far IMO. Oh, I agree competely. Her posts drive me batshit because they were incomprehensible. Although I’m often in grammar-nazi mode, I don’t mind modifications that are designed to me things _easier_ because that’s the natural evolution of language. As mentioned above, I would have no qualms with coming up with a pronoun for ‘unknowns’ as in the above “If you love someone, set him/her free.” That would make sense. But this woman’s posts were incomprehensible. If you are noticeably scarificing clarity and are impairing your actual ability to communicate, I would agree you’re taking it too far. > [@paulberserker](#): > > I’d also imagine it must be really difficult to keep that kind of thing up all the time after using gender specifics all your life. Do the people you know keep it up, or slip back into normal everyday usage sometimes? I don’t now. I’ve only ever come across this on message boards and specifically a board for politically-minded queer women (which includes transgendered women) that coincidentally had very high feminist population among its members. The people I remember using the “zeziszers” were that one woman whose posts confused me – she was a militant transgendered feminst, of the [Stonewall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots) era. In some ways I had a _huge_ amount or respect for her inasmuch as she was an actual Stonewaller – a participant in what was one of the most significant turning points in the civil rights movement for the GLBT community. It’s kind of humbling and, alas, somewhat underappreciated by my generation. But her posts still bugged the crap outta me. I don’t know if they actually speak this way in day-to-day life. I expect _some_ of them do _all_ the time (I don’t doubt for a second that the Stonewall woman would, her politics were a priority in _everything_), and I suspect that others will speak with common, gender-specific pronouns in the workplace and to do business, and then use their progressive speech at home and socially. The same way bilingual people will use their community’s common language at work and speak their preferred tongue at home and/or a hodgepodge of the two if their being lazy or not speaking formally. As far as I can recollect, I don’t remember ever coming across the gender-neutral speak IRL. Although, I have a nagging feel I _have_ but in an “Oh, listen those people at the next table are talking Neutral!” Can’t remember though. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/13 "2004-11-23T13:33:08Z")
Important Clarification for the OP: When I have encountered the gender-neautral pronouns, it was primarily from the die-hard **feminists** of the group and NOT the transgendered members unless, like the above were _also_ die-hard feminists. (The transgendered woman in my posts above was an exception, not the rule). IIRC, all the other transgendered members referred to themselves as female, and used and expected female pronouns. I can say without question that whether pre-op, post-op didn’t matter, they identified as _women_ and were respected as such on the board. But as far as gender politics in general can go… YMMV. So the young’uns today… I can see them adopting a gender-political spin. _Goes of singing The Crash Test Dummies “Androgyny” song…_ ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/14 "2004-11-23T13:57:01Z")
> [@NotWithoutRage](#): > > OK, what’s the deal with a lot of the younger transgendered kids insisting that they are gender neutral? I’m as open minded as I can possibly be, but I don’t see the advantage to saying “Ze went to the store” instead of she or he. I don’t mind if you want to go by either pronoun, I just want to understand. Do they consider themselves a third sex? Someone who claims to be “gender neutral” is not transgendered, IMO. Such individuals are either “differently gendered”, “queer”, or just plain confused. I don’t like the “zie” group of gender neutral pronouns, preferring the Spivak set: e, em, eir, eirself. ---
**Author:** ![NotWithoutRage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NotWithoutRage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotWithoutRage)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/15 "2004-11-23T14:30:57Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > Someone who claims to be “gender neutral” is not transgendered, IMO. Such individuals are either “differently gendered”, “queer”, or just plain confused. Well, yeah, I think that, too, but then they get all huffy and screamy with me for not "accepting their chosen gender identity. /on John Stossel/ Gimme a break! /off John Stossel/ ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/16 "2004-11-23T14:32:27Z")
I like the gender-nonspecific pronouns, and I use the e, em, ey, emself set. \ Note that gender-unspecified is not the same as gender-neutral. 'It" is gender-neutral and implies to me that the referent has _no_ gender, which is why it sounds wrong when used of people (and animals too, I suppose, though that’s another question). \ I find them very useful in dealing with the situation that comes up often here on the boards: you want to refer to one specific poster, but you have no idea what gender _ey_ are. You have the following choices:[ul][li]You can take a chance of offending the poster by blindly choosing “he” or “she”. [_]You can ask, but unless you asked backchannel, that would break the discussion continuity.[_]You can use “it”, but that’s definitely wrong.[/li]Or… [li]You can use the gender-unspecified pronoun and avoid the whole distracting issue. [/ul]With careful attention to sentence construction, the gender-nonspecific pronouns aren’t needed that often.[/li] It wasn’t until recently that it occured to me that they’d be useful in discussions with transgendered people as well, though I just go by how the person wants to be known. **Eats\_Crayons** , that poster who wanted to _eliminate_ all reference to gender and use _only_ the gender-unspecified pronouns was a bit over the top IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![paulberserker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@paulberserker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulberserker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/17 "2004-11-23T14:49:08Z")
This militant Stonewall person, would she (or whatever) refer to other people in a non gender sense? I mean fine if they want to neutralise all the gender specifics pertaining to themselves, but why refer to people who are (and again in my opinion, so are they, no matter whether they’re transgendered or not) as non gender specific? But thats only if they were doing that. Otherwise it smacks of the kind of insane PC fundamentalism used by some folk, ie respect what I term everyone else as, or else you’re against my ‘gender’. Or something. I’m kind of confused now. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/18 "2004-11-23T14:55:08Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > **Eats\_Crayons** , that poster who wanted to _eliminate_ all reference to gender and use _only_ the gender-unspecified pronouns was a bit over the top IMHO. Oh, you have no idea! Especially when getting into long, involved, and complex topics – it practically gave me a migraine trying to sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/19 "2004-11-23T14:59:42Z")
> [@NotWithoutRage](#): > > Well, yeah, I think that, too, but then they get all huffy and screamy with me for not “accepting their chosen gender identity”. I can accept their “chosen gender identity” (although in my experience you don’t choose your gender identity, but that’s neither here nor there) without agreeing that their gender identity makes them transgendered. It’s my personal experience that most (but admittedly not all) people who claim to be “gender neutral” are really transsexual, but presently unwilling to admit it, for whatever reason. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156/20 "2004-12-21T15:09:10Z")
I honestly don’t know what’s best for society as a whole; I’m a newbie at this and still trying to learn my way around. All I can tell you is my own personal preference. I’m transgendered and I want to be a “she” (should probably change my Doper user name to make that clearer). I also consider myself a feminist, but as a professional linguist I recognize there’s a limit to language engineering. Also, my transgender coming out is all about wanting to be a woman. Of course I want you to call me “she”! Womanhood is where it’s at for me. See, there are feminists and there are feminists. Some feminists see the whole phenomenon of gender as inherently oppressive. Some see womanhood as a very positive quality to be highly valued for its own sake. I’m with the latter flavor of feminism. (If you get rid of gender altogether, I seriously question how you could continue to have “feminism” at all.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-dopers-a-question-about-pronouns/276156.md?page=2)