# Transgendered people lack integrity and cannot be trusted.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265 "2007-03-02T03:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/121 "2007-03-09T20:13:04Z")
[QUOTE=Clark K] I don’t see Bricker trying to explain the commissioners’ thinking or defend their actions. I see him making the purely academic point that they might be able to come up with a coherent explanation for their decision – not a moral explanation or even a legally valid explanation but one that at least has some chain of logic behind it. [/QUOTE] Not even that far. I was simply pointing that the following analysis is invalid: > [@](#): > > The commission is saying that being a transexual, all by itself, makes a person unethical and unworthy of trust or respect. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/122 "2007-03-09T21:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Not even that far. I was simply pointing that the following analysis is invalid: [/QUOTE] You were trying to, but Miller has shown you how it is in fact valid when “we didn’t know you were a transsexual before” is the basis of the person in question’s supposed untrustworthiness. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/123 "2007-03-09T22:33:07Z")
[Stampede Expected in Stanton’s Favor](http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/09/Tampabay/Earlier_session_s_lim.shtml) > [@](#): > > LARGO - City Manager Steve Stanton requested a public hearing on Thursday to convince his bosses he can do his job as Susan Stanton. > > And he won’t be coming alone. > > Advocacy groups have rallied to Stanton’s side and hope to use his case to build support for federal legislation to protect gay and transgender employees from discrimination. An article in the local alterantive (similar to Chicago Reader): [Steve Stanton’s Story](http://tampa.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A207025): > [@](#): > > A few weeks ago, Largo City Manager Steve Stanton had never heard of the acronym LGBT (for lesbian/ gay/ bisexual/ transgendered). On Sunday, when he was spotted by a group of lesbian volleyballers on a beach in Gulfport, they broke into spontaneous applause. > > It’s been that kind of a week for Stanton. Prior to his brush with beachfront fame, he’d been talking with me in the Gulfport hangout Cahill’s — one in a long line of media encounters he’d been having or was about to have, from a Newsweek photo shoot at the Vinoy to appearances on Nightline and CNN with Paula Zahn. He’d been in the public eye for years as city manager, but had never experienced this kind of attention. > > He didn’t plan for it to happen this way. He had hoped, once he’d told a select few in Largo city government hat he was transitioning from male to female, that he could reveal the information according to a carefully calibrated plan, one that allowed time for policies to be adjusted and shock to die down. But that was not to be. The information about his transgender status was leaked to the St. Petersburg Times, the Times ran a story on its website, and before he’d even had a chance to tell his own son, he was all over the news. And when the Largo City Commission voted Tuesday to place him on administrative leave with intent to dismiss, he went from local notoriety to international cause celebre. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/124 "2007-03-10T01:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > He had hoped, once he’d told a select few in Largo city government that he was transitioning from male to female, that he could reveal the information according to a carefully calibrated plan, one that allowed time for policies to be adjusted and shock to die down. But that was not to be. The information about his transgender status was leaked to the St. Petersburg Times If the Largo city government feels it absolutely must fire somebody in this situation, I nominate for that honor whichever asshole it was who leaked this extremely personal confidential information about an employee/coworker to a major metropolitan newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/125 "2007-03-10T02:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] I apologize. I’m a native of _Cleveland, Ohio_. [/QUOTE] Oh god, eeeewwww. Okay, that’s just so very, very wrong. - **Guin** , lifelong resident of Pittsburgh, PA 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/126 "2007-03-10T03:46:43Z")
[QUOTE=ShibbOleth] An article in the local alterantive (similar to Chicago Reader): [Steve Stanton’s Story](http://tampa.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A207025): [/QUOTE] Wow, that’s an outstanding interview. I can directly relate to it in several respects. Thanks for posting that, **ShibbOleth**. I loved the lesbian attorney, too. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/127 "2007-03-10T03:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Oh god, eeeewwww. Okay, that’s just so very, very wrong. - **Guin** , lifelong resident of Pittsburgh, PA 😛 [/QUOTE] Too bad you guys had to get a dumb team like the Steelers, you poor pathetic city.\* 😛 backacha \*Parodic mimicry of age-old Browns-Steelers rivalry; I’m not actually a sports fan and could care less… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/128 "2007-03-10T16:00:12Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] Too bad you guys had to get a dumb team like the Steelers, you poor pathetic city.\* 😛 backacha \*Parodic mimicry of age-old Browns-Steelers rivalry; I’m not actually a sports fan and could care less… [/QUOTE] Yeah, and how many Super Bowls have the Browns won? 😃 Oh well, you did have at least ONE good resident…I think his name was Chuck Noll? Heeeheee!!! Dear heart, I believe you mean you COULDN’T care less 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/129 "2007-03-10T17:28:56Z")
Never mind football, our orchestra kicks yours’s butt. (Do you have an orchestra?) ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/130 "2007-03-11T07:09:14Z")
Lane DeGregory, an excellent feature writer for the St. Pete Times, has an [article](http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/11/Northpinellas/His_second_self.shtml) in today’s paper that charts Stanton’s lifelong struggle. It brought tears to my eyes and I hope those who argued so ignorantly to have him fired will be forced to think twice after reading it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/131 "2007-03-11T07:20:01Z")
[QUOTE=SanibelMan] It brought tears to my eyes and I hope those who argued so ignorantly to have him fired will be forced to think twice after reading it. [/QUOTE] Those people have not yet demonstrated the ability to think _once_. Twice is probably out of the question. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/132 "2007-03-11T13:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] Never mind football, our orchestra kicks yours’s butt. (Do you have an orchestra?) [/QUOTE] You mean like [this one](http://www.pittsburghsymphony.org/)? Or [this one](http://www.rcbb.com/)? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/133 "2007-03-11T19:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=SanibelMan] Lane DeGregory, an excellent feature writer for the St. Pete Times, has an [article](http://www.sptimes.com/2007/03/11/Northpinellas/His_second_self.shtml) in today’s paper that charts Stanton’s lifelong struggle. It brought tears to my eyes and I hope those who argued so ignorantly to have him fired will be forced to think twice after reading it. [/QUOTE] I was just coming by to mention that article. Features like that are why I love the Times and why I still subscribe instead of reading it free online. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/134 "2007-03-12T08:15:54Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Dude, what if Jesus _was_ the Terminator? It’d explain why he was so hard to kill! [/QUOTE] And why he said, “I’ll be back.” ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/135 "2007-03-12T14:04:21Z")
Why not cast Rasputin in that role… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/136 "2007-03-12T20:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] You were trying to, but Miller has shown you how it is in fact valid when “we didn’t know you were a transsexual before” is the basis of the person in question’s supposed untrustworthiness. [/QUOTE] But Miller has NOT shown that this is the argument being relied upon. The council could legitimately feel that any personal information that causes media attention is something they are entitled to know about ahead of time. The basis of their objection would not specifically be, “We didn’t know you were a transsexual,” but rather, “We didn’t know you were going to invite intense media scrutiny towards our town.” ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/137 "2007-03-12T20:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] But Miller has NOT shown that this is the argument being relied upon. The council could legitimately feel that any personal information that causes media attention is something they are entitled to know about ahead of time. The basis of their objection would not specifically be, “We didn’t know you were a transsexual,” but rather, “We didn’t know you were going to invite intense media scrutiny towards our town.” [/QUOTE] But again, Bricker, them thinking they’re “entitled to know ahead of time” presumes that it would be possible for them to know. If Stanton didn’t know she would transition until she decided to, how could she have told them? Before she realized she had to transition, what was there to tell them? Her struggle was internal and she didn’t plan to make it public. Her “decision” to do so is not a “choice” she’s making but something indicated by the medical establishment as the necessary, correct treatment for her condition. It’s absurd to suggest that it’s legitimate for an employer to demand an employee disclose any possible _future_ treatments they’re not even yet aware they need when they begin employment, or that it’s legitimate for to fire someone \for being untrustworthy\ as the result of any circumstances which result from that necessary treatment. Firing them because they can no longer do their job is another matter, but the given reason wasn’t “the attention makes it impossible for her to do her job”, as you know. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/138 "2007-03-12T20:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] But again, Bricker, them thinking they’re “entitled to know ahead of time” presumes that it would be possible for them to know. If Stanton didn’t know she would transition until she decided to, how could she have told them? Before she realized she had to transition, what was there to tell them? Her struggle was internal and she didn’t plan to make it public. Her “decision” to do so is not a “choice” she’s making but something indicated by the medical establishment as the necessary, correct treatment for her condition. It’s absurd to suggest that it’s legitimate for an employer to demand an employee disclose any possible _future_ treatments they’re not even yet aware they need when they begin employment, or that it’s legitimate for to fire someone \for being untrustworthy\ as the result of any circumstances which result from that necessary treatment. Firing them because they can no longer do their job is another matter, but the given reason wasn’t “the attention makes it impossible for her to do her job”, as you know. [/QUOTE] I’m going to be generous and assume Bricker meant “entitled to know ahead of time” to mean, once Stanton made the decision, to perhaps work with the city so that this could be prepared for and gradually worked up to. Stanton tried to do this and some other motherfucker let the cat out of the bag. So they still have no case. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/139 "2007-03-12T21:01:48Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] But Miller has NOT shown that this is the argument being relied upon. The council could legitimately feel that any personal information that causes media attention is something they are entitled to know about ahead of time. The basis of their objection would not specifically be, “We didn’t know you were a transsexual,” but rather, “We didn’t know you were going to invite intense media scrutiny towards our town.” [/QUOTE] The news article linked to in post 123 and quoted in 124 make it clear that Stanton was attempting to let her coworkers and superiors know ahead of time in a controlled, deliberate manner. The information was made public without Stanton’s consent. Were it otherwise, and Stanton made the information public without attempting to approach her colleagues first, you would have a stronger point. As it is, this was simply a foolish and unthinking backlash against the unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/140 "2007-03-12T21:19:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] But Miller has NOT shown that this is the argument being relied upon. The council could legitimately feel that any personal information that causes media attention is something they are entitled to know about ahead of time. The basis of their objection would not specifically be, “We didn’t know you were a transsexual,” but rather, “We didn’t know you were going to invite intense media scrutiny towards our town.” [/QUOTE] She didn’t “invite intense media scrutiny.” She had it thrust upon her. She didn’t go public about being transexual, she attempted to carefully control who knew, so as to protect her reputation and make sure everyone in her personal and professional life was on the same page and understood what she was doing _before she started transitioning_. She intended all along to let the council know about her condition before she went public with it, but she didn’t have the chance. That was done on her behalf by someone who dearly deserves to have an intimate encounter with a nest of fire ants. So explain to me again how your argument makes any fucking sense at all, given the facts of the situation? Just give it up, **Bricker**. Your impulse to be fair even to apparent villains is admirable, but there’s simply no way you can spin this story to give these assholes an out. The firing was plainly and explicitly motivated by anti-trans prejudice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265.md?page=8)