# Transgendered people lack integrity and cannot be trusted.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265 "2007-03-02T03:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/141 "2007-03-16T14:27:38Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] She didn’t “invite intense media scrutiny.” She had it thrust upon her. She didn’t go public about being transexual, she attempted to carefully control who knew, so as to protect her reputation and make sure everyone in her personal and professional life was on the same page and understood what she was doing _before she started transitioning_. She intended all along to let the council know about her condition before she went public with it, but she didn’t have the chance. That was done on her behalf by someone who dearly deserves to have an intimate encounter with a nest of fire ants. So explain to me again how your argument makes any fucking sense at all, given the facts of the situation? Just give it up, **Bricker**. Your impulse to be fair even to apparent villains is admirable, but there’s simply no way you can spin this story to give these assholes an out. The firing was plainly and explicitly motivated by anti-trans prejudice. [/QUOTE] Because of Florida’s Sunshine meeting law, the only options were to tell individuals or disclose at a board meeting. Apparently this became a damned if you do, damned if you don’t thing. Closed door board meetings are not allowed in Florida, the only specified exceptions are: (1) That portion of a meeting that would reveal a security system plan or portion thereof made confidential and exempt by s. 119.071(3)(a) is exempt from s. 286.011 and s. 24(b), Art. I of the State Constitution. (2)(a) A meeting at which a negotiation with a vendor is conducted pursuant to s. 287.057(3) is exempt from s. 286.011 and s. 24(b), Art. I of the State Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/142 "2007-03-24T15:05:13Z")
They’ve [upheld Stanton’s firing.](http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/03/032407largo.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/143 "2007-03-24T17:00:37Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] They’ve [upheld Stanton’s firing.](http://www.365gay.com/Newscon07/03/032407largo.htm) [/QUOTE] Stone age bastards! > [@](#): > > Commissioners contended Stanton was being fired because they lost confidence in him, not because he is transsexual. > > “I think we’re pretty well convinced,” Commissioner Gay Gentry said. “You have to believe us, you have to trust us, it is not about transgenderism.” And why did they lose confidence in him? Because he’s transgendered, so how can it not be about transgenderism? ---
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2007, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/144 "2007-03-25T01:01:45Z")
I am ashamed to live in the same county as those jackasses in Largo (on a side note, hey to all the Pinellas dopers. No idea there were so many. And incidentally, I don’t want to be tarred with the same brush as Tampa. I hate that place) Nor do I want to be tarred with the same brush as Largo. There’s no way to explain this as some breach of trust, it’s bigotry plain and simple. And you know, there’s a lot of places around here that will soon be losing some big LGBT bucks. Like the Suncoast Resort here in the Burg. What self-respecting GLBT person will want to come there when they think the locals are all backwards, pitch-fork carrying rednecks out on a witch hunt? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/145 "2007-03-25T01:03:23Z")
Love the handle, **RedRosesForMe**! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/146 "2007-04-18T03:17:32Z")
Had to bump this thread to note that Steve Stanton’s story was featured on The Daily Show tonight (4/17). Well worth a look. Rob Riggle is rapidly developing into one of my favorite Daily Show correspondents. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/147 "2007-04-18T04:05:06Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Dude, what if Jesus _was_ the Terminator? It’d explain why he was so hard to kill! [/QUOTE] Don’t be silly. According to the Gospels, Jesus was quite easy to kill. What you’re thinking of is that Jesus was _resurrected_, which means either he was an Alien or Sigourney Weaver is the Second Coming. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/148 "2007-04-18T04:11:01Z")
Related [GD thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417156) “Could “Sex-Change Stanton” legally remain married to his wife?” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/149 "2007-04-18T04:14:22Z")
[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe] And you know, there’s a lot of places around here that will soon be losing some big LGBT bucks. [/QUOTE] That’s already happened to Hillsborough County, thanx to [Rhonda Storms.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhonda_Storms#Anti-gay_movement) ('Course, Disney World and Key West are gonna get most of that trade anyway.) What’s more, the Florida Library Association recently announced it will not hold any conferences in Hillsborough until the ban on “gay pride” displays in public libraries is lifted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/150 "2007-04-18T04:30:07Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] She didn’t “invite intense media scrutiny.” She had it thrust upon her. [/QUOTE] Nitpick: Is it appropriate to use the female pronoun until Stanton at least starts wearing women’s clothing and/or has the hormone treatments? I have no opinion on that, just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/151 "2007-04-18T14:20:56Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The ones who voted to fire Stanton can all eat a fucking dick, [/QUOTE] I know just where they can find one, too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/152 "2007-04-18T14:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Nitpick: Is it appropriate to use the female pronoun until Stanton at least starts wearing women’s clothing and/or has the hormone treatments? I have no opinion on that, just wondering. [/QUOTE] Stanton has given permission to call her by the male pronoun until she visibly transitions, to make things easier on the press and so on, but she is a woman right now, because gender (unlike biological sex) is entirely a matter of self-identity. Personally I don’t go around calling anyone who says she is a woman “he”, but I do think it’s nice of her to allow it for now, at least because it helps keep the focus on the issue itself instead of all the confusion it brings up for people unused to navigating it. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/153 "2007-04-18T14:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Nitpick: Is it appropriate to use the female pronoun until Stanton at least starts wearing women’s clothing and/or has the hormone treatments? I have no opinion on that, just wondering. [/QUOTE] In one of the interviews with Stanton I read back in March, Stanton stated that the masculine pronoun was to be used because that was the gender that Stanton had been presenting up till that point. I think the key concept here is _presenting_. Now that presumably Stanton’s transition is full throttle underway, I guess the pronoun must shift to the feminine sometime about now? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/154 "2007-04-18T14:55:33Z")
I liked the Daily Show piece last night about the story. I especially liked the image of Florida being snipped off the map at the end of the segment. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/155 "2007-05-14T15:28:34Z")
Susan [Stanton will go before Congress tomorrow](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=8478974) to lobby lawmakers to enact legislation that protects gay and transgendered people. She looks resplendent in the accompanying photo. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/156 "2007-05-14T15:29:36Z")
[QUOTE=ShibbOleth] Susan [Stanton will go before Congress tomorrow](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=8478974) to lobby lawmakers to enact legislation that protects gay and transgendered people. She looks resplendent in the accompanying photo. [/QUOTE] Bad link. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/157 "2007-05-14T15:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=ShibbOleth] Susan Stanton will go before Congress tomorrow to lobby lawmakers to enact legislation that protects gay and transgendered people. She looks resplendent in the accompanying photo. [/QUOTE] Too late to edit, [here is the proper link](http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/13/Tampabay/Stanton_lobbies_Congr.shtml). Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/158 "2007-05-14T17:35:47Z")
She looks so happy now, so much more alive. Good to hear she may have a job again soon. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/159 "2007-05-14T18:46:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] …because gender (unlike biological sex) is entirely a matter of self-identity… [/QUOTE] 1. I personally agree with this approach, subject to the caveat that we mean genuine self-identity, and exclude idiots who may be seeking to scam or otherwise gain some sort of advantage by claiming different gender. 2. Having said that, I wonder if you have some sort of citation to authority for this claim. You state it as “is” rather than “should be considered.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265/160 "2007-05-14T19:44:56Z")
What logical way would there be to define “gender”, as a construct separate from biological “sex”, that is **not** entirely a matter of self-identity? The World Health Organization [defines gender](http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html) as “the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women”. They define sex, on the other hand, as “the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women”. “Roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes”, unlike “biological and physiological characteristics” are all subject to change by direct individual choice, which in effect puts the individual in the position of choosing his or her own gender. I do not see how any other consistent and reliable system of determining gender would work, except by applying criteria based on biological sex. So I’d agree with **EE** that gender as a construct independent of biological sex is indeed entirely a matter of self-identity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-people-lack-integrity-and-cannot-be-trusted/394265.md?page=9)