# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/201 "2013-01-04T00:46:48Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > And regardless of how you distinguish the two, I’m not sure why we can’t or shouldn’t also discuss how these things affect the transgendered as well as how they affect transsexuals. A transgender person is someone who is sure of and comfortable in their birth gender, but for many reasons, does things that are considered the province of the opposite gender. For example, a man who wears dresses and makeup. The crucial thing is, he is still a man in a dress. Therefore, uses the mens’ bathroom. That doesn’t need to change, ever. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/202 "2013-01-04T00:53:36Z")
The APA does not agree with your definition. > [@](#): > > Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. [http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx](http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx) ETA: > [@](#): > > Many identities fall under the transgender umbrella. The term transsexual refers to people whose gender identity is different from their assigned sex. Often, transsexual people alter or wish to alter their bodies through hormones, surgery, and other means to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their gender identities. This process of transition through medical intervention is often referred to as sex or gender reassignment, but more recently is also referred to as gender affirmation. People who were assigned female, but identify and live as male and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual men or transmen (also known as female-to-male or FTM). Conversely, people who were assigned male, but identify and live as female and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual women or transwomen (also known as male-to-female or MTF). Some individuals who transition from one gender to another prefer to be referred to as a man or a woman, rather than as transgender. [http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx#](http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx#) By APA definitions, transsexual people are transgender, but not all transgender people are transsexual. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/203 "2013-01-04T00:58:32Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > After all, these same women are okay with the same men wearing shorts and a t-shirt next to them in the dry saunas on the other side of the wall. Why aren’t they afraid of being raped there? I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me clothing is a defense against sexual assault. If I’m clothed, someone who wants to stick his fingers in me would have to get his hand down my pants first, and a rapist would have to get my pants off, which gives me more time to fight, call for help, escape, and flee. Trying to hold me down, while I’m fighting, AND get my clothes off is quite a bit harder than holding me down and sticking it in. I’m a bit surprised that never occurred to you, actually. Clothing is a physical barrier. Why wouldn’t it make me feel safer? Then there’s the social convention that locker rooms are considered single-sex spaces – while spaces that have signs designating them as co-ed are very clearly not – so someone flouting that convention is more likely to be doing so for some nefarious purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/204 "2013-01-04T00:59:01Z")
Yes, but in this thread, we’ve been discussing transsexuality in gender segregated areas. Unless anyone has been talking about crossdressers and the likes, in which case we’ve been talking at cross purposes. SOME transsexuals consider themselves to fall under the transgender umbrella, but some don’t. Personally having what I am conflated with transgender is the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/205 "2013-01-04T01:13:03Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me clothing is a defense against sexual assault. If I’m clothed, someone who wants to stick his fingers in me would have to get his hand down my pants first, and a rapist would have to get my pants off, which gives me more time to fight, call for help, escape, and flee. Trying to hold me down, while I’m fighting, AND get my clothes off is quite a bit harder than holding me down and sticking it in. > > I’m a bit surprised that never occurred to you, actually. Clothing is a physical barrier. Why wouldn’t it make me feel safer? > > Then there’s the social convention that locker rooms are considered single-sex spaces – while spaces that have signs designating them as co-ed are very clearly not – so someone flouting that convention is more likely to be doing so for some nefarious purpose. I understand it’s an emotional, not logical reaction, but the thought that a pair of cotton shorts with an elastic waistband would present an effective barrier against a rapist is, frankly, ridiculous. Think what the first reaction of women is to an unexpected man in the room…generally, it’s to cover their breasts and vulva with their arms, even before running away. Most adult women wouldn’t go skinny dipping with their best male friends, brothers and cousins - people they don’t fear attack from. That’s the fear that can’t be resolved with papers - not the fear of attack, but the fear of being \*seen \*by the socially wrong person. But it’s probably not an either/or. There’s probably both the fear of being seen \*and \*the fear of attack at work, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/206 "2013-01-04T01:22:48Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Yes, but in this thread, we’ve been discussing transsexuality in gender segregated areas. Unless anyone has been talking about crossdressers and the likes, in which case we’ve been talking at cross purposes. > > SOME transsexuals consider themselves to fall under the transgender umbrella, but some don’t. Personally having what I am conflated with transgender is the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me. Nobody was talking about crossdressers until you brought them into the discussion. Nobody in the thread conflates transgender with crossdressing until you offered that definition. When most people use the term “transgender” and “transsexual” interchangeably, they’re not conflating “someone who is sure of and comfortable in their birth gender” (itself a loaded proposition–perhaps you meant “birth genitals”?) with someone who experiences gender dysphoria. So the offense you’re taking appears to be manufactured. Before you take offense at the term “transgendered,” I think you need to pay attention to what the word actually means, instead of cleaving to an idiosyncratic definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/207 "2013-01-04T01:25:51Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Yes, but in this thread, we’ve been discussing transsexuality in gender segregated areas. Unless anyone has been talking about crossdressers and the likes, in which case we’ve been talking at cross purposes. > > SOME transsexuals consider themselves to fall under the transgender umbrella, but some don’t. Personally having what I am conflated with transgender is the most horrifically offensive thing imaginable to me. I agree that the term transgender may be too inclusive to be terribly useful. But my transsexual daughter certainly considers herself to be transgender, as do all of the transsexual people that I know. Most are adolescents so perhaps there are generational differences if you’re older? Your objection seems unusual. We often hear (and use) the term gender variant as well to include cross dressers, non-binary folks, gender benders, etc. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/208 "2013-01-04T01:26:25Z")
Yes, this one part of nudity is not that complicated or conspiracy against transwhatever the correct word is. Plenty of women prefer not to be seen nude by men. And a fair number of men by women for that matter. You don’t need to bring up fear of rape or whatever to explain it. And, IMO folks here who think that mindset is silly are the ones going way over the line here. Response to Whynots last post. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/209 "2013-01-04T01:36:25Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I understand it’s an emotional, not logical reaction, but the thought that a pair of cotton shorts with an elastic waistband would present an effective barrier against a rapist is, frankly, ridiculous. Not entirely. He has to get the shorts out of the way, and that takes time. The longer he takes before he succeeds, the greater chance I have of getting my thumb in his eye or my knee in his groin. Unless he has large hands, it’s going to be hard for him to hold both my wrists in one hand so he can have a hand free to pull the shorts down. I get one hand free, I can break his nose, box his ear, gouge his face. Even if I can’t get him off me myself, it can delay him long enough that someone else has time to intervene (especially since we’re talking about this happening in a room full of other people, including other men who may be as strong or stronger than he is, or greater numbers). When we’re talking about something like this, seconds matter. Onto terminology: For clarification, I’ve been talking about people who identify as women, to the point where using the women’s locker room is the most comfortable and safe choice for them, without regard to the extent of medical intervention that has happened or may happen in the future. This would include transsexuals and likely a few people who fall outside that strict definition, since there are any number of reasons why someone might identify as a woman but not opt to transition medically. The circles I (have) run in hew pretty closely to the APA definitions, when trans/intersex issues are the topic of discussion. I doubt a man in a dress would want to use the ladies locker room, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/210 "2013-01-04T01:39:55Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > No one is in favour of allowing transgender people to choose their changing/bathroom. There is a difference between a transsexual and a crossdresser, transvestic fetishst, autogynephile/autoandrophile, or voyeur willing to stick on some panties to get in the womens’ room. So my answer to your questions is that they aren’t a problem. And how the hell is a person not well versed in all these differences – as are are most – supposed to know the difference? I mean could I walk into a spa and just say that I am a woman\* (at least in my head), and bang! into the ladies locker room? \*Though I am Napoleon. No, seriously, I am. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/211 "2013-01-04T01:39:59Z")
For my own part, I don’t understand the concern about the wrong people seeing your bits. As a straight, cis-sexual man, I’ve used full-nude, no-exceptions spas for years in China, and if I showed up at a slow time, I’d fairly often see cleaning ladies wandering around, mopping behind me as I nudely sashayed across the room and making rude or leering jokes about me to each other. For my part, I think of it this way: - Is there any serious likelihood that, in the 21st century, an adult has not seen naked people of both sexes? - Is there any reasonable variation between mine own naked body and the one they’ve probably seen? So if you want to hop in the locker room with me and quietly go about your lockering business, feel free. As long as there’s no serious eye contact and no chit-chat - and believe you me I will not be supplying either of those, to anyone - then all are welcome. Why would you feel otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/212 "2013-01-04T01:41:27Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > I agree that the term transgender may be too inclusive to be terribly useful. But my transsexual daughter certainly considers herself to be transgender, as do all of the transsexual people that I know. Most are adolescents so perhaps there are generational differences if you’re older? Your objection seems unusual. > > We often hear (and use) the term gender variant as well to include cross dressers, non-binary folks, gender benders, etc. I’m 21. My objection is based on the fact transsexuals have nothing in common with anyone who comes under the transgender umbrella. We don’t belong in the same category as crossdressers, autogynephiles or transvestic fetishists. Further, the word “trans-gender” implies changing gender. My gender is female and always has been; it’s my sex that some perceive as male and my sex I change, hence trans-sexual and not trans-gender. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/213 "2013-01-04T01:45:57Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > For my own part, I don’t understand the concern about the wrong people seeing your bits. **As a straight, cis-sexual man** , I’ve used full-nude, no-exceptions spas for years in China, and if I showed up at a slow time.. – bolding mine. As a point of fact, what _does that mean_? 😕 I confess my almost total ignorance on this topic but I get terribly confused when reading this threads – I hardly ever participate in them since the infamous “female sperm” one – but it seems like bizarre definitions come out left and right…leaving me only _more confused_. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/214 "2013-01-04T01:49:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > As a point of fact, what _does that mean_? 😕 “cis” means, at the risk of REALLY pissing people off, what Joe on the Street considers “normal” - their gender matches their sex. A cis-male is a man, who was born with and still has a penis, who identifies as male, who dresses in clothes that society expects men to dress in and enjoys activities society says is okay for men. “Straight” means he likes having sexual and/or romantic relationships with women, but you probably knew that part. > **[Cisgender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender)** > > The word cisgender (often shortened to cis; sometimes cissexual) describes a person whose gender identity corresponds to their sex assigned at birth, i.e., someone who is not transgender. The prefix cis- is Latin and means on this side of. The term cisgender was coined in 1994 as an antonym to transgender, and entered into dictionaries starting in 2015 as a result of changes in social discourse about gender. > Related concepts are cisnormativity (the presumption that cisgender identity is p... ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/215 "2013-01-04T01:51:48Z")
Cis basically means not transsexual. Cis people can be crossdressers/have supposedly female interests. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/216 "2013-01-04T02:02:32Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I’m 21. My objection is based on the fact transsexuals have nothing in common with anyone who comes under the transgender umbrella. We don’t belong in the same category as crossdressers, autogynephiles or transvestic fetishists. > > Further, the word “trans-gender” implies changing gender. My gender is female and always has been; it’s my sex that some perceive as male and my sex I change, hence trans-sexual and not trans-gender. Okay, I get the objection to changing gender. But your understanding of the terms isn’t the generally-accepted understanding of the terms. And quite frankly there’s enough ignorance to fight out there–barking at people for using terms in the generally-accepted way doesn’t help matters much. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/217 "2013-01-04T02:04:35Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > – bolding mine. > > As a point of fact, what _does that mean_? 😕 > > I confess my almost total ignorance on this topic but I get terribly confused when reading this threads – I hardly ever participate in them since the infamous “female sperm” one – but it seems like bizarre definitions come out left and right…leaving me only _more confused_. “Cis,” to not only run the risk of pissing everyone off but to most assuredly do it, means that I’m one of the normals, the majority, the folks who already got theirs. More specifically, as was already said, it means that I feel no major sort of dsymorphia; the way I identify myself is the way people overwhelmingly identify me. It means ‘on this side’ in Latin, hence: cisalpine and transalpine Gaul. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/218 "2013-01-04T02:09:23Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Okay, I get the objection to changing gender. But your understanding of the terms isn’t the generally-accepted understanding of the terms. And quite frankly there’s enough ignorance to fight out there–barking at people for using terms in the generally-accepted way doesn’t help matters much. Lots of generally accepted things are wrong. And personally, I’d rather have to deal with ignorance (in the literal sense of lack of knowledge) than being associated with transgenders. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/219 "2013-01-04T02:12:23Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > “cis” means, at the risk of REALLY pissing people off, what Joe on the Street considers “normal” - their gender matches their sex. A cis-male is a man, who was born with and still has a penis, who identifies as male, who dresses in clothes that society expects men to dress in and enjoys activities society says is okay for men. “Straight” means he likes having sexual and/or romantic relationships with women, but you probably knew that part. > > [Cisgender - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) Thanks – but then why not just say that? I’m a dude/guy/man. End of. I love five dollar words as much as anyone here, but again, in threads like these they only make matters more confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/220 "2013-01-04T02:15:28Z")
Well, it’s easier to have a word to call not-transsexuals that isn’t as cumbersome as “not transsexual”. And in this day and age it’s easier than ever to look up a word. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=12)