# Transgendered person kicked out of a gender divided bathhouse/spa **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777 "2013-01-01T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/221 "2013-01-04T02:21:53Z")
PS- From your link: [**Cisgender vs. cissexual**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) > [@](#): > > As above, Julia Serano has defined cissexual as “people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned”, while cisgender is a slightly narrower term for those who do not identify as transgender (a larger cultural category than the more clinical transsexual).[3] For Jessica Cadwallader, cissexual is “a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans\* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex”.[5] Helen Boyd, author of My Husband Betty and She’s Not the Man I Married, has argued on her blog that cissexual is a less loaded term than cisgender and reflects fewer assumptions about the person’s relationship to gender roles and the transgender community.[6] How’s that word salad supposed to ‘clarify’ anything? Sorry, but I insist, I am as tolerant of LGBT as anyone I know, but on this particular branch (?) I think it’s confusing as hell. And I highly doubt that coming up with more and more terms/categories is helping anyone on the inside or the outside. I just wish someone would give it to me straight. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/222 "2013-01-04T02:24:20Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Thanks – but then why not just say that? I’m a dude/guy/man. End of. I love five dollar words as much as anyone here, but again, in threads like these they only make matters more confusing. Paradoxically, the expansion of human tolerance has led to an increase in people departing from the norm in an increasing number of ways, meaning that one’s descriptor grows longer and longer to define all the things that one is or is not, even if they were previously the default. I tell you, you learn some weird shit hanging out in the dark parts of the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/223 "2013-01-04T02:25:08Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Well, it’s easier to have a word to call not-transsexuals that isn’t as cumbersome as “not transsexual”. And in this day and age it’s easier than ever to look up a word. So you want me – and tons of people like me – to walk around with our 'net devices at the ready in case some says “hi, I am a straight cisgender”? And that helps _anything_, how? Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/224 "2013-01-04T02:32:14Z")
So for the crowd that thinks that people should use the facilities of their gender, and that the assault risk is an important argument–what about transmen? Take a transman that’s either early in the process or for whom the therapy isn’t working very well–he looks like a woman. If anything is an invitation to get assaulted by the more troglodytic members of society, that’s one. I’d think that many transmales would prefer to use the female facilities in any situation where they felt at risk. I’d suppose that a transman could pass as a woman even fairly along in the process; highly reduced breasts, light body hair, and a generically male style of dress aren’t going to be impediments. I’m personally ok with transmen having the choice of facilities, depending on their comfort level, but then it seems inconsistent to deny others the same choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/225 "2013-01-04T02:33:02Z")
… You didn’t know a word, so you think people who do should stop using it? ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/226 "2013-01-04T02:43:53Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Lots of generally accepted things are wrong. And personally, I’d rather have to deal with ignorance (in the literal sense of lack of knowledge) than being associated with transgenders. It’s your hill. You know that you talk about “transgenders” in the same dismissive way that some people talk about you, right? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/227 "2013-01-04T02:44:13Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > … You didn’t know a word, so you think people who do should stop using it? To be fair, it’s one of those Tumblr-borne cutesy neologisms (coined in reference to ancient Latin geography and current chemistry jargon, where “cis” is the opposite of “trans”) and one can be irritated by its use or by the assumption that everyone ought to know it, just like one can be irritated by similar terms like “shaming” and “mansplaining,” without necessarily disagreeing with anything that the person using the word actually advocates. I’d suggest not pre-emptively irritating people you’re trying to persuade by introducing a lot of inside jokes and flippant humorous slang terms for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/228 "2013-01-04T02:49:46Z")
I don’t assume everyone knows any word I use. I assume they can look it up, or ask if it’s an actual real-life conversation. I also assume they won’t be angered by my use of it. It’s not an inside joke or a “flippant humourous slang term”, it is actually the word that means “not transsexual”. Google it, I didn’t invent it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/229 "2013-01-04T02:56:00Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > … You didn’t know a word, so you think people who do should stop using it? Yeah, right. That’s _exactly_ what I am saying. I don’t speak Cantonese either, so I think it ought to be banned from use. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/230 "2013-01-04T03:00:39Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > To be fair, it’s one of those Tumblr-borne cutesy neologisms… Just in case anyone in this thread is still operating under the misconception that you have any clue what you’re talking about, the first recorded usage of “cisgender” dates to 1994. Tumblr was launched in 2007. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/231 "2013-01-04T03:09:05Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Doreen - I’m not sure I understand your first question. Could you elaborate please? You said “So should we as a society cater to peoples’ irrational emotional response to such harmless things as being around someone with different genitalia nude?” Presumably, the reason transpeople do not want to use the locker room, spa etc used by those with the same genitalia because the transpeople have an emotional response to being around someone with the _same_ genitalia nude. Why is one emotional response rational and something we should cater to while the other is not? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/232 "2013-01-04T03:24:20Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > You said > “So should we as a society cater to peoples’ irrational emotional response to such harmless things as being around someone with different genitalia nude?” > > Presumably, the reason transpeople do not want to use the locker room, spa etc used by those with the same genitalia because the transpeople have an emotional response to being around someone with the _same_ genitalia nude. Why is one emotional response rational and something we should cater to while the other is not? IMO, if someone wants to place limitations on another persons actions or movement, they need to provide an argument for the restriction that’s significantly stronger than the other person’s reasons for wanting to do the restricted thing. If both reasons are equally valid, the person who wants to restrict someone else’s actions loses. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/233 "2013-01-04T03:27:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > So you want me – and tons of people like me – to walk around with our 'net devices at the ready in case some says “hi, I am a straight cisgender”? And that helps _anything_, how? > > Bullshit. Here, I’mma be the ultimate SDMB douchebag and lead by socratic example. Watch this: Identify yourself. Actually, I’ll save you the trouble. By identifying yourself, assuming you’ve done it, you’ve left out dozens or hundreds of factoids or figures about yourself - factoids that you assign no moral or personal significance whatsoever - based sheerly on relevence. You already have piles of these; it doesn’t hurt to add one more. It is neither just nor meaningful to judge a person by their shoe size, but if we’re discussing shoe stores in Xintiandi, it might be relevant. Since we’re discussing issues of sexuality, I figured it wouldn’t hurt to add mine to the mix, and everybody’s something. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/234 "2013-01-04T03:29:46Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think the whole fear of rape thing is a red herring, by the way. In my estimation, it’s more about women not wanting to be seen nude by a man (or someone they perceive to be a man) that they’re not sexually involved with, rather than fear that they’re going to be attacked in a public place. After all, these same women are okay with the same men wearing shorts and a t-shirt next to them in the dry saunas on the other side of the wall. Why aren’t they afraid of being raped there? I think it is too. I honestly don’t know a lot of American women who are comfortable being naked around anyone - a number of them that includes their husbands. We are a puritan society. The community center I go to has a mens locker room, a womens locker room, and a family locker room with stalls for you to get dressed in - a lot of women use the family locker room even if they don’t have kids - so they don’t need to take a shower in front of other women or get dressed in front of other women. I know women who don’t shower at the gym - or do so in a swimsuit, grab the corner locker, change using the “expose no skin you don’t see on the treadmill” method. Now, presumably, if you go to an Asian bathhouse, you aren’t quite so prudish - you are comfortable enough to be naked around what you think of as other women. But not necessarily around what you think of as men. Regardless of how that individual perceives themselves. (Or vice versa). I’d also imagine that an Asian bathhouse is pretty likely to be patronized by Asians - who don’t necessarily have a forward thinking culture on gender identity. However, if transpersons aren’t likely to go into a situation where they’d be “made” its pretty unlikely that this particular transperson was actually kicked out for being trans - 'cause who would notice, I’m not checking other women for their implant scars for a breast enhancement, and I’ve never seen anyone look that close in any locker room I’ve been in - its likely that they were kicked out for some other sort of inappropriate behavior. And, when you are a person who is often discriminated against, its easy to see any negative action as discrimination. (And please forgive any poor word choices, my intent here is good, but I find the language on this topic to be confusing and don’t speak it often). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/235 "2013-01-04T03:30:21Z")
HOOOLEEEEE SHIIIIIIT Well, here’s what we all get for speculatin’. [I found a news report about it.](http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Trans-man-hits-Niles-spa-with-discrimination-complaint/40762.html) Transman, not woman. Offered private shower. Refused. Filing suit. Playing the racial segregation equivalency card. No, I don’t know him. Yes, it appears drama llama was the correct answer. I don’t have a problem going back there. Thanks, all. It’s been real. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/236 "2013-01-04T03:32:54Z")
FWIW I think “cis\*” is awkward to say IRL, and _seems_ somewhat new-agey and contrived (despite it being around for a couple of decades or so) but it can make online discussions easier (less typing). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/237 "2013-01-04T03:35:03Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > First point: we disagree on the black analogy, then. I don’t see any difference whatsoever between the two situations. Then you aren’t looking very hard. Again, not every instance of bigotry or discrimination is just like what happened to Black people. Just as every genocide is not a Holocaust, and every dictator is not Hitler. Comparing any and everything to those things just indicates you are a lazy thinker or a dishonest debater. > [@Sevencl](#): > > As for being unfair to people who lost their lives - 1 in 12 transwomen in the US are murdered. A lot of them because they drew attention to themselves fighting for our rights. That stat is clearly false. I don’t even know why you would try to pass that off as even remotely plausible. There are about [900k](http://sillytranswoman.blogspot.com/2011/04/from-la-times-estimated-9-million.html) trans people in the US. Let’s assume half are women. In [2011](http://www.transrespect-transphobia.org/en_US/tvt-project/tmm-results/tdor2011.htm), there were 9 trans people murdered in the US. In [2012](http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2012/11/20/13-transgender-americans-murdered-2012) (up until November), there were 13. There is absolutely no way you stat is even remotely accurate. Or to quote this [site](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/): > [@](#): > > I decided to look at some statistics on murder rates and how they might relate to transgender people. I know that the murder rates are higher in other countries, but for the sake of simplicity (and easy of data-gathering) I’ll focus on the US for the moment. > > According to the Williams Institute, .3 of individuals identify as transgender. That’s 1 in 333 (ish). > > According to the FBI, people living in the US have a lifetime murder risk of 1 in 240, in 1997. I don’t have current statistics for lifetime murder risk, but from 1997 to 2010, the homicide rates fell from a total of 18,208 (1997) to 14,748 (2010). > > If 14,748 people were murdered in 2010, and 1 in 333 people in the general population are transgender, and transgender people are murdered disproportionately to other demographic groups, then we would expect greater than 1 in 333 murders to be murders of transgender people. So, greater than 44 people.\* > > According to the Transgender Day of Remembrance, 14 transgender people were murdered in the US in 2010. In short, the stat seems to have been made up. If you have a source, please cite it. Otherwise, please stop saying such a ridiculous claim. > [@Sevencl](#): > > Second: no one needs to change anything to “cater to” transsexuals. Most places have one room for women, one for men. We’re not asking for special treatment, just to be allowed to use the right one in peace. The catering part is because you are asking others to be okay with allowing individuals to use their own internal logic rather than societal norms to determine who is in the “right” place. > [@Sevencl](#): > > Third: that’s so ridiculous I’m not even going to address it. Slippery slope to anarchy from a discussion about who can use what bathrooms? Come on. What the hell are you talking about? Why don’t you try quoting what you responding to. > [@Sevencl](#): > > Fourth: the fact that a real transsexual will have ID (or as Una Persson accurately noted, “carry papers”. If someone is upset by what they perceive as a man in a female space, these can be produced. Are you under the misimpression that every transexual will have the proper identification at all times? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/238 "2013-01-04T03:48:32Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > There are about [900k](http://sillytranswoman.blogspot.com/2011/04/from-la-times-estimated-9-million.html) trans people in the US. Let’s assume half are women. It does not change your point that much, but there are about 3:1 to 4:1 transwomen to transmen. Just FYI. > [@](#): > > In short, the stat seems to have been made up. If you have a source, please cite it. Otherwise, please stop saying such a ridiculous claim. Yeah, when I saw that 1 in 12 number I almost choked; holy shit. I was going to post some citations as to the real figures, but I was sans laptop. Murder _used to be_ a more significant cause of death for transwomen (but never within an order of magnitude of 1 in 12), due largely to a disproportionate number of transwomen being forced into sex work due to being fired or unable to be hired. The real tragedy of transwomen is suicide, with 19-33% attempting suicide at some point in their lives, and conservatively estimating, a “successful” suicide rate nearly 70 times that of the general population. Vis, about 800 in 100,000 on a lifetime basis (compared to 11.5 in 100,000) Haas, Ann P. et al. “Suicide and Suicide Risk in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Populations: Review and Recommendations” _Journal of Homosexuality_ 58 (2011): 10–51. > [@](#): > > Are you under the misimpression that every transexual will have the proper identification at all times? Sadly, many do not. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/239 "2013-01-04T04:02:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Just in case anyone in this thread is still operating under the misconception that you have any clue what you’re talking about, the first recorded usage of “cisgender” dates to 1994. Tumblr was launched in 2007. Nonetheless, it’s the recent rise in insular, largely Internet-based communities where people can quickly spiral into their own little worlds of private languages and more that has made the term one that is popular with people who are likely to use it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777/240 "2013-01-04T04:13:55Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The first response might be that most of the time it works out that mental and body gender are equivalent. > > The second response might be that people’s gender is defined outside of their genitals. Say you go into a restaurant and meet a woman. She’s wearing a skirt and sweater, long styled hair, some jewelry, some makeup, she has female mannerisms, she doesn’t have prominent male physical traits, she appears to have breasts, and her conversation and interests all align with those of a typical woman…everyone, barring some wild-eyed transphobe, would mentally chalk her up as “woman” without bothering to perform a strip-search and check her genitals. That’s all great, but it wasn’t what I asked to have explained. What I want to have explained is why you think we should have divided locker rooms at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/transgendered-person-kicked-out-of-a-gender-divided-bathhouse-spa/645777.md?page=13)